FJowners.com

General Category => Modifications => Topic started by: softailfun on April 05, 2016, 02:45:23 PM

Title: Electrics
Post by: softailfun on April 05, 2016, 02:45:23 PM
I may be losing the plot here so forgive me if I make a bit of a prat of myself. I usually work on older UK bikes or Harley's, so the electrics on the FJ, although perfectly understandable from the wiring diagram I have, are causing me a bit of a problem.

I'm making a few changes to the FJ H reg with ABS. I need to reduce the amount of cables that exist within the loom (never have I seen so many). I have removed the ABS and all associated electrics in the tail of the bike. Consequently I now have a lot of cables, that are not needed, removed. The loom is completely exposed so I am able to trace individual wires to anywhere on the bike, and the bike turns over and starts at this moment in time.

I have discovered that a major step would be to get rid of the "Relay Assembly", is their a way to wire around this? I am sure in here that I read of a member not having an "Igniter Unit" on his bike. Was I dreaming or am I missing something? My intention is to run the cables within the frame of the FJ, so the less cable the better.

Any advise on this would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: softailfun on April 07, 2016, 06:38:05 AM
Hmmmmm no answer came the stern reply.  :flag_of_truce:

So I take it their is nothing I can do or I've broken etiquette in some way?
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: 4everFJ on April 07, 2016, 07:02:03 AM
Could be that the number of ABS owners and/or owners messing with the electrics, are quite limited..  :pardon:
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: CutterBill on April 07, 2016, 07:13:00 AM
Just exactly what is your question?  Can you wire around the "relay assembly"?  Which relay assembly?  Do you mean the ABS relays in the tail?  If you are removing the ABS, there is no need to "wire around the relays"... they will simply be removed with the rest of the ABS wiring.

And do I understand you correctly... you want to remove the Igniter Unit?  Yeah, you can do that.  If you don't want the engine to run...
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: red on April 07, 2016, 08:15:51 AM
Softailfun,
No, you have not stepped on any toes here.  Welcome to the FJ forum!    :yes: 

I am curious about why you want to "wire around" the relays?  Which relays?  Relays are a great idea; they let you switch large currents on and off, using only regular sized wires at the switches.  The best example is the starter relay.  The switch needed to replace it on the handlebars would be huge and heavy, and the cables needed would be long enough to lose a lot of battery power before it got to the starter.  When switching large currents, human hands are just not strong and fast enough to engage the switch quickly, and so a manual switch would not last long there.

Actually, I am planning to add a relay to my bike, for the headlights.  The wiring from the battery to the relay to the lights can be heavier than stock, and much shorter than it is now.  The same switch that now controls the headlights will be used to control the relay instead.  The reduced load (relays do not need much power) on that switch will allow it to operate for many years longer than one under normal headlight loads.  Changing out a bad relay (switch) is easy and cheap; handlebar switches are getting scarce and expensive.  Those are the electrical benefits of a relay, but the real benefit will be brighter headlights on the road, even without using the new and better bulbs.

Cheers,
Red
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: softailfun on April 07, 2016, 08:33:54 AM
Quote from: 4everFJ on April 07, 2016, 07:02:03 AM
Could be that the number of ABS owners and/or owners messing with the electrics, are quite limited..  :pardon:

Thanks for getting back, yes I appreciate your point. Maybe I was jumping the gun a little. Apologies for that.  :flag_of_truce:
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: softailfun on April 07, 2016, 08:51:41 AM
Quote from: CutterBill on April 07, 2016, 07:13:00 AM
Just exactly what is your question?  Can you wire around the "relay assembly"?  Which relay assembly?  Do you mean the ABS relays in the tail?  If you are removing the ABS, there is no need to "wire around the relays"... they will simply be removed with the rest of the ABS wiring.

And do I understand you correctly... you want to remove the Igniter Unit?  Yeah, you can do that.  If you don't want the engine to run...

Hi CutterBill and thanks for replying. I have removed all the tail section electrics together with ABS unit, i'm happy with that. The relay that I want to get around is the one that has two cables running to the igniter and has cables running from all the safety's (clutch, side stand, neutral switches) into it. I need to minimize the number of cables in the loom and this particular relay seems to be responsible for so many cables that I won't be using. 

As for the igniter, well I understand that it is an essential part of course. However I read in a post in this forum that the author of the post had no igniter on his FJ. I didn't see how that was possible, which is why the comment "was I dreaming or am I missing something" appeared in my original post. Regretfully I can't find the thread now, so dreaming seems to be the answer!!  :lol:

Hope this clears up my question. Cheers 
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: softailfun on April 07, 2016, 09:07:43 AM
Quote from: red on April 07, 2016, 08:15:51 AM
Softailfun,
No, you have not stepped on any toes here.  Welcome to the FJ forum!    :yes: 

I am curious about why you want to "wire around" the relays?  Which relays?  Relays are a great idea; they let you switch large currents on and off, using only regular sized wires at the switches.  The best example is the starter relay.  The switch needed to replace it on the handlebars would be huge and heavy, and the cables needed would be long enough to lose a lot of battery power before it got to the starter.  When switching large currents, human hands are just not strong and fast enough to engage the switch quickly, and so a manual switch would not last long there.

Actually, I am planning to add a relay to my bike, for the headlights.  The wiring from the battery to the relay to the lights can be heavier than stock, and much shorter than it is now.  The same switch that now controls the headlights will be used to control the relay instead.  The reduced load (relays do not need much power) on that switch will allow it to operate for many years longer than one under normal headlight loads.  Changing out a bad relay (switch) is easy and cheap; handlebar switches are getting scarce and expensive.  Those are the electrical benefits of a relay, but the real benefit will be brighter headlights on the road, even without using the new and better bulbs.

Cheers,
Red

Hi Red and thanks for the welcome. First up let me make it clear, I am out of my comfort zone with the electrics on this FJ. I think I explained earlier that I usually work on older Brit bikes and Harleys where the electrics are of a much simpler format, as you'll appreciate.

Because of my plans for this FJ I need to slim down the loom as much as possible..... really slim it down. The particular relay that I want to get around feeds two cables to the igniter and receives cables from the various safety switches on the bike (clutch, neutral, oil pressure, side stand etc). I my basic understanding of what it does (not the mystery of how) checks that all safety's are in place and as should be then allows power to hit the igniter (superficial at best I know).  Their must be a way of getting around this particular relay, but I may have tied myself up in knots and am missing something really obvious. Hope I have explained my self a little better. Cheers
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: softailfun on April 07, 2016, 09:14:03 AM
The type of "thing" I am after is a Streetfighter theme with all the tail section removed and the seat lowered. The only place I can see to fit battery and electrics is the area around the monoshock (rear side top of). I am fine with the "metal side" of the work, but the electrics.  :wacko2:

Just so you know where I'm headed.

Thanks
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: 4everFJ on April 07, 2016, 10:19:51 AM
The ignitor controls things like ignition (signal from pick-up and signal to the coils), so I cannot see how could loose it. They bike wouldn't start/run.
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: softailfun on April 07, 2016, 10:28:44 AM
Quote from: 4everFJ on April 07, 2016, 10:19:51 AM
The ignitor controls things like ignition (signal from pick-up and signal to the coils), so I cannot see how could loose it. They bike wouldn't start/run.

Well that's the way I see it. Maybe I just misunderstood the post  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: racerrad8 on April 07, 2016, 01:10:40 PM
Here is the minimum wiring to make an FJ run. This is how we wire our race cars.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 07, 2016, 01:22:07 PM
Randy, can you put your attachment over in the Modification Files section?

This question on "minimum wires needed" has come up before.

Thanks boss!
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: racerrad8 on April 07, 2016, 01:32:57 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 07, 2016, 01:22:07 PM
Randy, can you put your attachment over in the Modification Files section?

This question on "minimum wires needed" has come up before.

Thanks boss!


Yes, that is something I will need to learn from you when you come up.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: softailfun on April 07, 2016, 03:51:16 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on April 07, 2016, 01:10:40 PM
Here is the minimum wiring to make an FJ run. This is how we wire our race cars.

Randy - RPM

Hi Randy, thank you so much for the diagram. You have no idea how much I appreciate your help. There are a couple of things I just need you to clarify if you wouldn't mind. Do you mind if I pm?
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: racerrad8 on April 07, 2016, 03:56:06 PM
No problem, but maybe it would be better here. That way if the question comes up later down the road the answer will be there for the next guy.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: softailfun on April 07, 2016, 06:00:33 PM
So as can be seen from the post, I had a problem to solve with my FJ electrics. Fortunately Randy saw my problem/Thread and sent this diagram. It made sense apart from a couple of things and Randy was good   enough to answer these. In fairness to Randy he wanted to continue the conversation in the forum so all could see what was being said. I didn't want to lol. However I gave my word that I would copy what he had to say into the forum so that anyone in the future would have access to the questions I had.

So here it is, Thanks Randy!

Okay, this system will have zero safety feature. The bike will start in gear and if the kickstand is down.
The top is the CDI
The three terminal box is the vacuum advance which is not required to make it run. We do not use them on the race car.
The safety switches are all grounding switches. If a switch is open (kickstand down) the starter solenoid (relay) will not activate. If the starter relay is grounded eliminating all of the safety's then the soleniod will engage the starter.
We call "earth" in the US as ground. Ground is the black arrows. The red wire is the 12v positive wiring that powers everything.

I was confused about, what appeared to be two boxes at the top left of the diagram. I asked randy about these and the answer was simple. On looking again it can be seen from the drawing that these "boxes" are indeed 1 unit

That is the standard ignition box. It has 6 pins in one plug and four in the other.
On the "6 prong plug" You are going to have the 12v input, two ground connections and one coil connection to each coil
The four prong plug is only going to use the two input wires from the crankshaft pick-up coil.
The only relay in the system is listed as the starter solenoid.
Randy
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: red on April 08, 2016, 08:54:48 AM
Quote from: racerrad8 on April 07, 2016, 01:10:40 PMHere is the minimum wiring to make an FJ run. This is how we wire our race cars.
Randy - RPM
Randy,

1,2,IGN,3 - is that the stock ignition switch?
What is MAS?

Thanks,
Red
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: FJmonkey on April 08, 2016, 12:10:28 PM
I am guessing that is the MASter ignition switch since it is part of the power circuit. Good idea to be able to cut the power off.
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: racerrad8 on April 08, 2016, 12:16:18 PM
Quote from: red on April 08, 2016, 08:54:48 AM
Randy,

1,2,IGN,3 - is that the stock ignition switch?
What is MAS?

Thanks,
Red

1,2 & 3 are auxiliary switches to run fans, lap timer, rear running light etc.
IGN is the ignition switch.

All of those a re just single pole toggle switches.

MAS is the main master battery switch to disable to complete electrical system in the event of a major crash.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: softailfun on April 08, 2016, 07:53:58 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on April 08, 2016, 12:16:18 PM
Quote from: red on April 08, 2016, 08:54:48 AM
Randy,

1,2,IGN,3 - is that the stock ignition switch?
What is MAS?

Thanks,
Red

1,2 & 3 are auxiliary switches to run fans, lap timer, rear running light etc.
IGN is the ignition switch.

All of those a re just single pole toggle switches.

MAS is the main master battery switch to disable to complete electrical system in the event of a major crash.

Randy - RPM

Totally misread that. Thanks Randy.
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: TomJK on January 06, 2022, 04:38:19 AM



Hi Randy

I got a Igniterbox from a newer type FJ, can I swap that with my 3CV type, plugs are identical...

Cheers, Tom.

Quote from: softailfun on April 07, 2016, 03:51:16 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on April 07, 2016, 01:10:40 PM
Here is the minimum wiring to make an FJ run. This is how we wire our race cars.

Randy - RPM

Hi Randy, thank you so much for the diagram. You have no idea how much I appreciate your help. There are a couple of things I just need you to clarify if you wouldn't mind. Do you mind if I pm?
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: RPM - Robert on January 06, 2022, 10:36:19 AM
Depends on what years you are trying to bridge, the rotor and pickup are different for some of the years and I do not believe will work.
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: TomJK on January 07, 2022, 04:31:06 AM
Hi
I've got an FJ from1989, the ignitorbox is from an FJ from1991. Hitachi 3SK=01 is on the box.
Cheers, Tom.
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: RPM - Robert on January 07, 2022, 09:19:41 AM
At least for the US models the pickup and rotor are the same for 89 & 91.

So the box should interchange to get it running. However, I don't know if the pins are all pinned out the same. So you will need to confirm all the wires are in the same spot or risk letting the smoke out.
Title: Re: Electrics
Post by: TomJK on January 07, 2022, 09:31:16 AM
Thanks, will look for it in service manual...