FJowners.com

General Category => FJ Project Writeups => Topic started by: PaulG on June 30, 2017, 03:03:01 PM



Title: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on June 30, 2017, 03:03:01 PM
Why Oh Why Oh Why?   :shout:  You might say that when you see the pics.  My 92ABS is getting long in the tooth and I am anticipating some downtime within the next few years - though she's solid as a brick shit-house at the moment.  So I will eventually need alternative transport.  I could have bought another running 1100/1200 but the price was right and I've never sunk my teeth into a full-bore restoration.  I want to see if any of my accrued knowledge of 30ish yrs of motorcycling will be of any use.  I am anticipating a very long project timeline 1-2yrs if things go well.  Plus with whatever skills I will improve upon or learn anew, I can apply to my 1200 later on.  Call it FJ Prep 101.

So the story so far... I saw the ad on Craigslist a couple of weeks ago so I decided to inquire via email.  After repeated non committal answers from the seller (the ad was pulled of the site) I made one more contact.  I was beginning to think it was a scam.  But according to him he was just really busy.  I told him if he has decided not to sell (it had been up there for a month) he has my number and email.  After a week of back and forth he was suddenly available.

It has been sitting (allegedly) in the underground parking lot of his building for 15+yrs.  He wanted to get it back together for his kids but they weren't interested, blah-blah-blah.  I looked at it last night and hummed and hawsd.  It's about 97% original, just in really rough shape from non-use and neglect.  His asking price was a steep $400 (CAN).  He said he would let it go for $300.  After sleeping on it I decided to go for it (with a little knowledge from another member who said it would be a good project if I was willing).  He also said he had the carbs "recently" rebuilt by Rosey Toes Motorcycles Inc. (https://www.facebook.com/Rosey-Toes-Motorcycles-Inc-210581415640809/)  They're one of the few Olde Tymie Shoppes left in the Toronto area.  Judging by one of the bikes you see in their title pic they must be ok...  :sarcastic:  I will still give them a going over to double check everything.  If they were then that covers the purchase price for me.

This morning it was off to Home Depot to rent a van, and meet up with him.  First step was to remove the front calipers so the wheel would move and we towed it up from the underground parking with his car (F&R both flat).  I noticed the switch gear looks similar to the early model FJ1100's.

Then I realized I left my tie-downs in my car at the Home Depot.  :good:  We moved it up inside and there was some seat belts behind the drivers seat that we hooked it up to.  All I had to do was make it the 2km to the nearest Canadian Tire store to buy some MORE tie-downs.  I made it less than 100m from his building and on a left turn at the lights ---- KAAAA-RUUUNNNCH! ----- as the 600 decides to flop over on it's right side.   :blush:  A quick survey reveals no damage, and after a few expletives I haul it back up right.  Re-attach the seatbelt and wedge my folding bike ramp into the subframe on the right side.  Now I make it without incident to buy the tie-downs.

My costs so far...

Purchase Price  $300.00
Van Rental         $84.69
Tie-Downs         $28.24

SubTotal         $412.93

BTW the wife knows nothing yet.  And when the inevitable comes  :ireful:  I will just remind her I just spent the exact same amount to get two tickets for her to go see that musical theatre show Strictly Ballroom downtown last week.   (popcorn)   Our interests in life couldn't be more divergent.

It will be a while before anything else gets posted.  Now I HAVE to clean out the basement to make space for this.   :pardon:  I'll also be buying up some spares on the internet (particularly a front end - those fork tubes are toast).  Oh yeah - guess I should find some manuals for it...   :wacko2:

Also I am still able to use Photobucket to link to 3rd parties since their policy change.

Any tips on literally stripping the frame to get rid of the rust and repaint would be appreciated.   :good2:

Wish me luck!   :bye2:


(http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/pgirard005/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_150901_zpskdcss9pk.jpg) (http://s839.photobucket.com/user/pgirard005/media/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_150901_zpskdcss9pk.jpg.html)


(http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/pgirard005/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_150915_zpsqii0pupu.jpg) (http://s839.photobucket.com/user/pgirard005/media/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_150915_zpsqii0pupu.jpg.html)


(http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/pgirard005/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_150937_zpsitjrlc4u.jpg) (http://s839.photobucket.com/user/pgirard005/media/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_150937_zpsitjrlc4u.jpg.html)


(http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/pgirard005/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_150951_zpslsyq1swx.jpg) (http://s839.photobucket.com/user/pgirard005/media/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_150951_zpslsyq1swx.jpg.html)


(http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/pgirard005/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_151005_zpsy3dcvlbi.jpg) (http://s839.photobucket.com/user/pgirard005/media/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_151005_zpsy3dcvlbi.jpg.html)


(http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/pgirard005/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_151018_zpsjejqkodn.jpg) (http://s839.photobucket.com/user/pgirard005/media/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_151018_zpsjejqkodn.jpg.html)


(http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/pgirard005/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_151030_zpsefsimvuv.jpg) (http://s839.photobucket.com/user/pgirard005/media/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_151030_zpsefsimvuv.jpg.html)


(http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/pgirard005/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_151042_zpsm3iegnld.jpg) (http://s839.photobucket.com/user/pgirard005/media/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170630_151042_zpsm3iegnld.jpg.html)





Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Hersey289 on June 30, 2017, 05:26:40 PM
Looks kinda cool Paul. Have fun with the project!  :good2:

Rob


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: paulfj03 on July 01, 2017, 05:21:15 AM
Neato, Paul.

I will be following along
 :mail1:

Paul





Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: X-Ray on July 01, 2017, 06:37:13 AM
I think this will be great when finished, how many restored FJ600s do you see? (Well none in Australia anyway,  :good2:)


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on July 04, 2017, 03:14:32 PM
Finally got the ownership transferred into my name today.  In Ontario it's mandatory that you have to purchase a used vehicle history and keep it as a record for when/if you resell.  Took a while to print off because I am now the 9th ! owner of this '85 FJ600. :good2:  One of them is the Yamaha dealer where I get my OEM parts.  Which is where I picked up 2 OEM oil filters and an air filter (on back order).

I've been checking the internet for parts and luckily I've found 3 sources within an hour of me, plus more further afield.  I found a GYSM also which I intend to buy - even though the price seems a bit steep.

Today I did a gas tank draining/inspection/cleaning.  The "gas" that was in there - ~2L - would have made a nice amber ale if you were desparate and ran out of mouthwash to drink.

...mmmm... tasty....
(http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/pgirard005/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170704_115419_zpsu4z2ntmu.jpg) (http://s839.photobucket.com/user/pgirard005/media/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/20170704_115419_zpsu4z2ntmu.jpg.html)


My initial worry was the tank would be flaking off like cornflakes inside.  My first inspection didn't give me any encouragement.

untouched tank

(http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/pgirard005/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/untouched_zpsrber7x1f.jpg) (http://s839.photobucket.com/user/pgirard005/media/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/untouched_zpsrber7x1f.jpg.html)



I had some patrtial containers of various solvents, so I decided to first use some laquer thinners (about a cup or two as that's all that was left).  I wanted to try and get rid of any varnish or other goo that may have accumulated over the years of un-use.  What came out seemed slightly darker than the original gas so maybe it's working, but no change in the rust.

after laquer thinners wash
(http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/pgirard005/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/after%20laquer%20thinners_zpszmkdtgov.jpg) (http://s839.photobucket.com/user/pgirard005/media/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/after%20laquer%20thinners_zpszmkdtgov.jpg.html)


Then it was on to about the same amount of acetone.  This came out a lot clearer, even with the small amounts I have used so far.  But no change in the rust yet.

after acetone wash
(http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/pgirard005/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/after%20acetone_zpsoujmxo2u.jpg) (http://s839.photobucket.com/user/pgirard005/media/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/after%20acetone_zpsoujmxo2u.jpg.html)



Now I flushed the tank out with water, then added a bottle (~1L) of CLR Cleaner (http://www.jelmar.com/CLRbasic.htm), and filled it up with water again.  I let it sit for about 10 min.  The instructions said 2min, but that's usually just for the rust stains you get in your toilets or sinks.  After flushing the results were quite noticeable.

after CLR cleaning
(http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz315/pgirard005/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/after%20CLR_zpssepgrltg.jpg) (http://s839.photobucket.com/user/pgirard005/media/1985%20Yamaha%20FJ600%20Ressurection/after%20CLR_zpssepgrltg.jpg.html)

Though not completely gone, the rust had diminished substantially.  I took out the float level from the underside of the tank and used the opening as an additional inspection port.  My initial fears seemed unfounded as it appeared most of the major rust was just below the filler cap.  The underside of the top of the tank was clean.  There was a little bit inside the bottom right, but the bottom left (petcock side) seemed decent enough.  The external rust on the tank seems worse than the internal.

Satisfied with the results, I poured in ~1/2L Varsol to rinse out the remaining water, then added ~3/4L of engine oil to line the tank to prevent further rusting.  That's a load off my mind.  I wasn't averse to buying another tank if needs be, but it's impossible to see what the insides are like over the internet.

I was going to start looking at the carbs, but it's been one of those up-all-night-working/stay-up-all-day cycles.  Been up ~27hrs now and getting punch drunk. :wacko1:.  Time to zombie out.  Once the carbs are sorted, I'd like to drain the sludge in the sump, and pull the oil pan off to make sure the oil pump isn't fouled before I try to get it turned over.

I was going to put on a new filter - fill with new oil - get it heated up - then dump - new filter again - refill.   Is there a product out there that can be used by itself or added to the oil that will clean out the engine internals.  Like an internal shampoo?  Or is getting fresh oil through it good enough?  That reminds me... gaskets...  :mail1:

Running costs so far:

Purchase Price      $300.00
Van Rental           $84.69
Tie-Downs           $28.24
Gas for Rental      $19.20
OEM Oil Filters (2) $25.40
OEM Air Filter       $49.22  :shok:
Used Vehicle
History                $20
Ownership
Transfer              $71

Sub Total            $597.75








Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on July 12, 2017, 11:05:59 PM
OK Back to square one with the pics.  Started transferring to Flickr finally so I'll just post a few of what I had previously.

The 1st Day at Home
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4277/35075516883_40fc7cad9d_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Vrvca6)


(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4212/35843900526_161dd1f7a6_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WBpmQW)

Old "Gazzoleene"
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4291/35844020486_1b34c6886f_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WBpYvd)


Gas Tank Untreated
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4306/35497265150_bcb97143b2_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/W5LLdW)


After Laquer Thinner/Acetone/Varsol/CLR Wash
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4313/35076024353_5a00051b5f_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VrxN1z)

Like mentioned above I coated the inside with some oil.  I may give it another cleaning with a stonger dose of CLR as it seemed to do some good.

Now the carbs.... welllll.... let's not and say we did - as they say.  I won't go into too much detail here, but the last PO assured they were rebuilt etc.  Being in a poorly lit underground parking garage I didn't get a good look at them.  All in all my own fault.  I was a little perturbed when I unwrapped the newspaper they were in.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4312/35753588281_7c1a33b5f6_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Wtquag)


A little more when I opened them up...

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4232/35844067756_a34f26a8b7_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WBqdyd)


And kinda pissed when I saw this... the broken float pin mount.  Somebody didn't rebuild them - they butchered them.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4277/35753633491_6995312184_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WtqHAK)

I know the buyer beware axiom.  I was prepared to enter into a carb rebuild despite being previously "rebuilt".  But I thought this was a bit ridiculous, so I texted the PO and voiced my "concern", and also why the need to drag a well known shop's reputation into it.  I told him no need to reply as it was my problem now.  To wit - he did reply and vehemently denied any shenanigans - "receipts, I'm an honest guy, I'm not a mechanic, I didn't know as they were in storage for 2yrs" (despite wrapped in a 17yr old newspaper?).  So it was mutually agreed to let it go.  Like I said my own fault for not checking closer.

So I proceeded to disassemble them.  Nearly impossible as everytrhing was coated in a layer of treacle.  The float needles had siezed in place along with every single jet.  I brought them to work and took the broken one and soaked it in automotive paint grade acetone for a couple of hrs.  The only thing I could free up was the float needle.  Put in a second carb with better success and managed to unscrew all the jets and choke.

This is a before/after of the emulsion tube.  The "before" is after the carb was soaked in acetone, and the tube was removed after copius amounts of WD40.  The "after" is when the tube itself is soaked again in acetone.  Would these be considered salvageable after some proper cleaning (ultrasound?)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4210/35753967981_ad381d0fe3_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Wtsr2P)


BUT WHERE ONE DOOR CLOSES ANOTHER ONE OPENS

That was last week.  This is this week - and I went shopping.  Found some parts on-line so paid him a visit yesterday.  The guy selling them said he and a buddy were making a cafe project that "went a different direction".  So he was just unloading what was left.  Win/Win for both of us I think.  For $120 CDN I was able to pick up the following:



Cluster Gauge - L/R controls incl m/c and all cables & connections
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4232/35715795892_419c2989e9_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Wq5MNm)



Carb Set - the sawdust was free of charge!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4231/35844190726_a51f99d31e_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WBqR7o)



Mirrors - Ignitor Box - Turn Signals - Shifter - Bracketry - Crankcase Vent - assorted bolts
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4242/35885007665_ec7b1b0ccd_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WF33yH)



H/L assembly - U/L Triple Trees & Stem - Starter Motor - Coils - Rectifier - Starter Solenoid - Relay - Stock Wiring Harness
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4301/35844294906_026227a45f_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WBro5A)



Rear Wheel incl Cush Drive - Sprocket Hub - Rear Disc & Caliper
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4218/35844226006_843b54673e_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WBr2AE)


AAANNNNNNDDDD.....

Front End (less the calipers sold the week before) but incl Discs, Fender, & Speedo Cable
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4326/35075935623_a70d04428c_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VrxkCK)


The fork tubes on the bike may be irrecoverable due to extensive/deep rust

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4218/35715594382_5ea5c4c9bd_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Wq4KU3)

The new tubes have some rust - the question is can putting them on a bench polisher redeem them?

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4300/35844263446_fbc7ad25a9_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WBrdJb)

I've also ordered some gaskets so I can remove the oil pan and inspect the pump screen and clean out any sludge that may have accumulated.  On that note what is the consensus on engine flushes like Kleen Flo (http://www.kleenflo.com/products/637.html)?  I've bought 2 oil filters and 7L of oil.  The idea was change old oil & filter - add new oil & filter & engine flush (heat up engine) - then change oil & filter again.  Or should I just change the oil and get a few hundred clicks on it then change it again?  I've read (as usual) conflicting reasons as to why/why not it should be used.  I won't be doing this for a while yet.

Next step is to jumper it off the 1200 and see if it will crank over.  I'm doubting it cuz a quick look at the wiring under the seat showed a previous hatchet job of blade fuses and glass tube fuses.  But ya never know.

Running costs so far:

Purchase Price      $300
Van Rental            $84.69
Tie-Downs            $28.24
Gas for Rental       $19.20
OEM Oil Filters (2)  $25.40
OEM Air Filter        $49.22
Used Vehicle
History                 $20
Ownership
Transfer               $71
4L Yamalube         $39.61
Engine Gaskets     $41.17
3L Castrol            $22.39
Kleen Flo             $7.33
Used Parts           $120

Sub Total            $828.25

Better start turning a wrench or something....  :blush:








Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Sabre093 on July 13, 2017, 05:05:57 PM
 (popcorn)
Love watching threads like this...keep it coming Paul


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Bezmozek on July 13, 2017, 06:30:45 PM
For fork legs try 2000/3000 sand grit and oil.
I had similar rust dots, done this on my XJ and fork seals lasted much longer


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on July 13, 2017, 08:43:49 PM
For fork legs try 2000/3000 sand grit and oil.
I had similar rust dots, done this on my XJ and fork seals lasted much longer

Thanks. Will any oil do or find a specific machinists oil?

I also did a quick survey on EBay of the parts I just bought for $120.  Not including the front end or starter motor, the bulk of the parts totalled ~700$.  Even if you are able to purchase all that stuff at 1/2 price I'm still way ahead of the game. Couldn't pass on a bargain like that.


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Bezmozek on July 13, 2017, 09:01:42 PM
I did that with semi syntetic 10W-40, but olive oil will work probably too.  :biggrin:
Tried first between upper and lower triple tree so see if surface is smooth enough. No polishing was needed afterwards.
Just wet sanding and use oil instead of water.


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on July 17, 2017, 10:35:44 PM
So GOOD NEWS  :good2: , WORRIESOME NEWS  :negative: ,  and BAD NEWS   :shout:  today.

First, the GOOD.  I attempted to turn the engine over by jumping it from the 1200.  The headlight came on, the signals worked, the horn gave out a wimpy "mwwweeeep".  Good signs.  Press the starter button and.... nuttin'!  I cross my fingers and hope for the best.  First check - the starter switch.  I take it apart and it appears clean inside desipite whats growing on the outside.  I disassemble the switch and give it some contact cleaner - blow it out with the compressor, and.... IT WORKS!   :dance2:  The engine seems to spin freely.  I reassemble the switch and double check and it still spins up.  Phew!  That's potential hours of troubleshooting I won't have to do.  As far as spark... I'll check that later.

I was worried because this is what the fuse box looks like on the bike (covered in priceless moondust  :good:):

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4314/35154454944_8a9d3b4a7f_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VytLG9)

And this is what it looks like on the stock wiring harness that I bought:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4313/35154259054_58f52a1851_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VysLsJ)

Let's just hope it works.

Second, the WORRIESOME.  Next was to check the valve clearances.  Haven't bought the GYSM yet so I went by the Clymer instructions for now.  They were kinda vague, just saying, "Rotate the cam by turning the crankshaft... In order to obtain a correct measurement, the lobe must be directly opposite the lifter surface."  No mention of timing marks, BDC, TDC, etc. like with the '92 1200.  Don't know if it matters with a 2-valver vs. 4 valver?  Guess I'll find out when I get the GYSM.  I don't have the exact feeler guages.  The set I have increment by 0.1-0.12-0.13-0.15-0.18mm in the range that I need. The numbers in red are a guesstimate for now as they fall between the gauges I have.  Initial check was as follows:

                                    #1                 #2              #3              #4

O/L                               
spec 0.12-0.16mm            0.14              0.16            0.15            0.15

I/L
spec 0.11-0.15mm            0.11              0.11            0.10            0.13

So that doesn't seem so bad right?  :scratch_one-s_head:  What is WORRIESOME is what I saw when I took off the cam cover and bolts:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4317/35952628026_19a7269150_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WM1BK1)

This is what I peeled off from the inside of the gasket:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4299/35861281111_09a196beac_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WCWruc)


And the two bolts on the cover by #4 I/L had this:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4291/35823425972_3e90dc3393_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WzAqto)

The gasket itself looked fairly recent.  It was still very pliable so the reason for all the goo is puzzling.  Unless the more is better solution to everything was used by a PO.   :crazy:

A visual inspection of the cam lobes showed some abrasion/scoring(?) on the #1 O/L, less so on the #2 O/L, and nothing on the rest of the I/L's and O/L's.  I couldn't feel anything with my very scientifically calibrated finger.  Maybe the lobe was sitting on the shim for an extended period of time?

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4322/35183571693_88fad9f924_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VB4164)

And now for the BAD.... :mad:

When I was taking off the cam cover bolts, one fell down into the #2 spark plug well between the fins and cam chain divide.  When I was wrestling to retrieve it, I noticed the cylinder bolt (circled in red) was loose.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4329/35154420304_e51419cb6a_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VytAoU)

But it was more than loose as it pulled right out and then I saw this:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4298/35994093375_88244d54ae_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WQF8WP)

JUST  :dash2: [email protected]#ING  :dash2:  GREAT!  :ireful:  NOW WHAT!?  :cray:

Any suggestions on how to proceed with this is most welcome.  Not much point in proceeding from here until a plan on how to proceed is figgered out first.  Things like pull the head off (and all that it entails) and helicoil - or just toss it and look for another motor - or just stooooop!!!!   :hang1:





Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: FJ1100mjk on July 18, 2017, 03:54:11 AM
First time that I read through your posts from the beginning.

I'd stop where you are at, and cut your losses. Maybe by selling what you can on eBay, and the like.

If you like challenges, there's others out there, that won't soak you so bad with money and time.


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Sabre093 on July 18, 2017, 07:59:42 AM
Clean up everything and maybe research what alternative motor will work....once the motor is out you can clean ,inspect everything and either replace motor or look to change...like a 750 Seca or XJ 750 powerplant possibly,something that's a direct swap maybe...


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on July 18, 2017, 11:42:12 AM
Thanks for the input so far.  I'll be inspecting the 2nd set of carbs this week and if things work out I'll see if the bike will run, and check compressions.  If those are ok then I'll ponder the next steps.  I'm not totally averse to diving into the motor if it's "just" fixing the stud (or replacing all of them with new ones).  After all it was supposed to be schooling for me.  Just been a very long time since I've pulled a head off (my 1980 KZ750 probably around 1987 ?)

A different motor had occured to me, but I'll pursue some further inspections on this before I make that decision.  I know this engine/frame combo was spread out amongst the 550/600/650/750 XJ/FJ/Fazer series of that period so there's lots out there if needs be.  The early 750 Secas were shaft drive so I don't know if that would be an option without some confabulating bit'sn'bobs to fit.

Cease and Disisting is still an option in a way that ties in with the above.  If the motor turns out to be pooched, I could toss that and rebuild the rolling chassis.  Just keep an eye out for a decent replacement motor.  I have the time to wait as I gave mayself a year or so to get her back on the road.  Just have to keep the horse before the cart - which I still haven't mastered after all these years.

So onwards and sideways for now!   (popcorn)


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on July 18, 2017, 01:18:56 PM
Okay I thought it would be a while but I just opened up one of the carbs from the 2nd set I just bought.  It's like night and day.  Everything came apart with nil effort.  I think they were cleaned before they were stored in the sawdust pile.  Not a whiff of gas, but a faint odour of possibly carb cleaner.  I can look through all the jets and see daylight.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4320/35876182081_718c19180d_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WEfP2t)



All the internals look almost brand new.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4328/35876205991_091d01d56d_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WEfW8H)



With the exception of the diaphragm.  There is some cracking along the edge where it seats into the carb body, but no indication of holes yet.  The diaphragms from the 1st set (the only thing salvageable) were actually in better condition so I may just swap them out.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4325/35838726502_e2b6798bab_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WAWQMC)


If you look down into the recesses there is a little debris which should clean up with a soak in acetone.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4294/35967905086_fbc53292eb_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WNmV5A)



The float bowls have minimal crud in them.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4310/35198546163_fdaa1aba05_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VCnKtz)


At least I have seemd to have lucked out on their condition.  Onward Concorde!   :drinks:




Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on August 10, 2017, 09:26:19 PM
Some dummy said:
Just have to keep the horse before the cart - which I still haven't mastered after all these years.

For the past few weeks I have been consumed by carburetors.  When inspecting the 2nd set of carbs I overlooked the idle screws.  Three of four were siezed in place.  I tried using a heat gun, then a propane torch, but they wouldn't budge.  So it was time to drill....  Two came out no problem. But the one for #4 proved stubborn. And before I knew it I had butcherd it completely.  I won't show a picture because it's just too humiliating.   :cray:

Now I 've read a lot of stuff here about extractors etc, and not to use them if possible.  Well I have bit of confession to make.  I was a kid who would sometimes do things - when told specifically not to - just because I wanted to know why.  Like sticking my finger in a light socket (after my dad told me not too while he got a new bulb).  Getting my tongue stuck on a frozen piece of of steel in the winter (I was tricked by my brother!)... and later in my terrible teens - smoking a bug after finding it in a bag of Columbian herb (on a dare from my buddy - hey Tommy Chong did it in "Nice Dreams").  So now I know why/why not.  Lesson learned.   :blush:

Back to the topic at hand...  so I butchered the #4 carb.  No sweat.  I have the original ones from the bike and I'll just swap out the carb bodies.  I proceed to dismantle the original only to realize it is the one with the broken float tab mount!  So I'm SOL for a #4 carb.  YOU IDIOT!   :ireful:   But I remember another parts source on the internet - and he lived only a few blocks from where I work - and he had carb bits for sale.  After nearly a week of back and forth due to our conflicting schedules we finally meet up.  The carbs he had were a  literal basket case - but all I really needed was the #4 body.  Upon inspection I see that somebody had done the same thing and drilled out the pilot screw.  I tested it with a screw and it went in fine, so the damage was just cosmetic to the top of the entry. Saved by the internet again.   :yahoo:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4382/36491290395_40ba598724_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XABpie)


I bought the basket of carb bits - and another set of front forks for $50.  They seemed less rusty than the ones I had so I'll see how they turn out.   I now had three sets of carbs and had to make one good set out of them.  The kitchen counter was invaluable for this.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4441/36093787880_338ccfbe3a_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WZu6DA)


I was going to swap out the diaphragms from the 1st set and use the needles from the 2nd set.  They were the only thing salvageable from the originals and were in better condition.  But upon disassembling everything I realized something was different about the 2nd set of diaphragm needles.  There was 4mm of play up and also sideways.  So I took apart the original set to compare them.  The originals are on the right, the 2nd set on the left.  So what's different?

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4387/36322556112_8ce59a2cf8_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XkGAts)

The 2nd set is missing the donut with the lock pin (for want of a better description).  Plus the 2nd set has shorter needles.  I wonder how his bike could run with so much slop in those needles.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4430/36353224451_3be0d3c32a_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XopM6V)

I decide to stay with the stock set-up so I just disassembled the originals, cleaned them out and installed them.

Now I remember there was a crankcase breather filter in the spare parts I bought.  This could mean these carbs were set up for air pods which means the jetting could be different from stock.  So I start pulling them out to check the numbers and compare them to the Clymer manual.... What numbers I can make out don't even come close to what's in the manual.  Then I realize the manual only has specs for BS28 carbs.  The FJ 600 has BS32 carbs FFS!  :dash1:  So the Clymer manual is probably spec'd for the XJ550/600.  I've also found out that cyl 1&2 have 105 main jets and 3&4 are 102.5 (stock).  ???  I can't read anything on these, but there is a bag that came with the originals with all four new main jets in these sizes.  So I guess I'll put them in and see what happens....

Gotta get me that GYSM soon.

Well now that I'm almost there I also waited on new float needles/seats and bowl gaskets.  Installed them today and did and initial fuel level check using the wet test.  The manual says to do it on the bike - and shim the centre stand to make everything perfectly level... blah blah blah.  Fuck that!  I'll use that new Aussie invention that showed up here just recently.  A vice and a pair of Vice Grips!  What ingenuity!   :good2:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4346/36093763730_6a2474fc1c_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WZtYtd)

I used methyl hydrate (methyl alcohol) to do this instead of gas.  Used a level on the carbs as per the manual.  It's supposed to be 2mm +/- 1mm from the bowl flange.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4389/35655629794_8703924fef_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WjLqvQ)


It's in the ball park for now without adjusting the floats.  Hopefully they're already set-up properly. (?)  And nothing overflowed (that's a first for me...).  I will recheck them once they're on the bike.  Tomorrow I can put them on the 600 and see if she fires up...   :scratch_one-s_head:

Running costs so far:

Purchase Price      $300
Van Rental            $84.69
Tie-Downs            $28.24
Gas for Rental       $19.20
OEM Oil Filters (2)  $25.40
OEM Air Filter        $49.22
Used Vehicle
History                 $20
Ownership
Transfer               $71
4L Yamalube         $39.61
Engine Gaskets     $41.17
3L Castrol            $22.39
Kleen Flo             $7.33
Used Parts           $120
1gal ea
Varsol/Acetone/
CLR/Methyl Alc.    $75
Carb Repair Kit      $140

Sub Total            $1043.25



Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Bezmozek on August 11, 2017, 01:05:34 PM
I think it is too late to tell you that this will be lot of time and money to make her run again.
I wish to have carbs clean as yours in my FJ.
So don't give up and good luck.

BTW: Can you please measure brake caliper gap? 1100/1200 have same ones, but probably wider? thx


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on August 11, 2017, 02:47:00 PM
I think it is too late to tell you that this will be lot of time and money to make her run again.
I wish to have carbs clean as yours in my FJ.
So don't give up and good luck.

BTW: Can you please measure brake caliper gap? 1100/1200 have same ones, but probably wider? thx

Well if I sink enough into it, I don't have to lie to the wife when I say "Sorry honey, I can't loan you any money. I'm broke."   :pardon:  I'm not a very good liar.

The front caliper gap looks like 27mm.

This was a set of carbs from the parts I bought and they were already fairly clean.  I just used some dish soap and hot water and a tooth brush on them.  Then did the same thing with acetone.  If I was able to use the original carbs they would have needed a long ultrasonic bath (which I don't have).

Progress Report:

Changed the oil and filter but had a hard time getting the filter out.  It has stock exhaust and it should have slipped out between #2&3 headers.  Had to loosen both and pull them apart.  Then had to slide up the filter til it had enough clearance.  I wouldn't think this was normal, so I'm wondering if #2&3 headers are reversed.  They look to be slightly shorter in length than #1&4.  What should have been 10 min took almost an hour.

Carb installation hit a snag so I won't be attempting anything with that until later next week.  This working for a living keeps getting in the way of living.   :blum2:


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: X-Ray on August 12, 2017, 06:09:54 PM
Good going so far, having mismatched bits inside the carbs would make it a nightmare to get running properley. Getting everything back to stock sizes gives you a good base to work from for sure


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Bezmozek on August 13, 2017, 09:24:51 PM
.. so I'm wondering if #2&3 headers are reversed.  They look to be slightly shorter in length than #1&4.  What should have been 10 min took almost an hour.
Inner and outer pipes have different length, so if mismatched, you will not be able to fit both halves of exhaust as connecting pipe will be in wrong angle.
I think that downpipes have same bolts on the lower end, same as 1100/1200.
All those bolts should face inwards, to the centre of bike.
Sorry, sold my 600 many years ago, do not remember oil filter change, hope this helps.

Thx for measuring caliper, 1100/1200 ones are 29mm wide, for now it will work. :good2:


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: ZOA NOM on August 14, 2017, 08:19:31 AM
I love this... Makes me miss my '84...


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on August 23, 2017, 05:15:39 PM
So what's been going on lately?  Carbs Carbs Carbs... again.  After getting them assembled I was finally able to install them last week.  But for the life of me I couldn't push them into the manifolds.  After several attempts I was forced to step back and rethink/panic at what was wrong.

The possibilities were:

  • wrong engine in frame? - but the numbers matched...
  • wrong size manifolds? - the i/d was only 2mm smaller than the o/d of the carb throat

My initial panic lessened after a couple of days.  I converesed with a fellow member re this and we compared measurements with his 600.  Everything seemd nominal.  I called the guy I had bought the basket case carbs from, and he told me his olde tymie mechanic said that it's a common problem with older bikes.  In fact he had to use a PVC pipe and a heat gun to get one of his to fit on the 600 he was restoring.  I didn't think I needed to do that, so I fired up the tea kettle.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4426/36717698336_d08a187d54_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XWBNuq)

I soaked each one for a 5min in boiling hot water and they slipped on quite easily.  Great I thought.  Now I can just bolt the whole assembly on, right?  :good: If I had the fingers of an I-Phone production assembler I probably could have.  :nea:  But #'s 2&3 were inaccessible as many of you were probably already aware.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4407/36717687126_84a30de0db_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XWBKa9)

So back to the conventional method.  Except they were still impossible to push in now.  I had already put a film of grease on the carbs and manifolds.  I needed something slipperier so out comes the can of Lithium spray lubricant -  and two tire irons.  With some prodigious effort they finally popped in.  Aaannnnnd..... I forgot to attach the aux. tank line before I did this.   :dash2:

Now I fiddle around incessantly trying to fish this gas line down there.  To facilitate this I undo the 2 carb cap bolts that secure the throttle cable holder.  Both of which slip out of my slimy grip down into that nether region of carbs/starter/alternator.  But I got the hose on.  But now my butterflies are stuck 1/2 open when I tested the throttle.  It's getting dark and I'm starting to grind my teeth.   :mad:

Three days later...  I thought the butterliy binding may have been too aggressive with the tire irons.  But upon removal I find both cap screws jammed in the throttle mechanisim.  Phew!  So back on go the carbs.  This time they took less effort, though I still need to use the tire iron as a wedge.  The license plate was last registered in 1999, so I imagine if the carbs were off for an extended period of time, and considering the age of the rubber, they were just too stiff - even with only a 2mm difference - to insert easily.  I think as time goes on they should get easier to pull on/off.

So my first attempt at starting went nowhere.  The stock fuel line set-up has vacuum lines attached to the manifolds - 2&3 are joined and 1&4 are joined and T'd to the fuel tank.  I wondered what to do as the Clymer manual is usless in this respect.  I plugged the end with my finger but she wouldn't start.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4365/35955669633_25147ea4a1_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WMhcUv)


 After texting with our fellow member it was suggested to cap off the ports.  He rides his this way without the vac hoses and says it runs fine.  So now the adventure begins.  How hard is it to find caps for vacc ports?  That depends on what you are willing to put up with.  My local Canadian Tire had a set of 8 in 4 sizes (2prs & 4 single).  So not wanting to spend $20 on several packages that I wouldn't need, I sauntered over to the Yamaha dealer.  Why it's only $40 for 4 including clamps.  So I decide to saunter over to the aftermarket dealer - Yamaha vacc caps are OEM only so I would have to go back to the dealer - so I go over to a different Canadaian Tire store to buy the multipacks only to find that particular store doesn't have any - but he suggests going to the auto parts supplier just around the corner - who doesn't keep them in stock because nobody uses them anymore - but he says Home depot has something in their nut'n'bolts section - which they do but are screw protector caps - goodfuckingenuff for now!  I've wasted 2hrs doing this - plus I couldn't get any dog food cuz the plaza had no power.   :ireful:

And the result was this....  1985 FJ600 "start-up" (https://youtu.be/DNps6vdntkg)

Running very rough - #1 cyl not firing. Did a carb balance by ear just to get the revs down from 4K to 1K.  Did the finger burn test on the headers to confirm #1 was cool.  Switched #1&4 cables and #1 still cold.  Switched #1&4 plugs (though they're brand new) and #1 still cold.

Turned it off for a bit to go inside, when I restarted now #1&3 not firing.  Ok.  I have a spare set of coils which I can swap out to check everything again.

Maybe another update tomorrow.  I'm on holiday til after Labour Day so I might be able to spend some extra time between hacking out the jungle that's called a yard.

BTW - I've been conversing with several people so far - they shall remane nameless for now in case this thing goes south.  Wouldn't want to taint their reps.  Full appreciation will be lauded upon succesful completion.... eventually.   :good2:



Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Bezmozek on August 23, 2017, 08:12:30 PM
 :yahoo: congrats, great job.

cap off the ports...hmm, you will need them anyway with tank.
Just change hoses for new ones, connect as was before and for now, blind the tank part with M6 bolt.
If there is no air leak, this does not affect the engine.

Check all wiring, at least groundings near coils and if you make all cylinders run, sync carbs properly, this sounds, like crank bearings are worn out


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on August 24, 2017, 10:07:11 AM
I took the video with my phone.  It sounds different through the mic than in reality. I noticed it too after listening for the first time.  Standing beside the machine there is no real knocking noise.  But it's something I will keep an ear out for.

I've already changed out the vacc and fuel hoses (they're in the pic). All original fuel lines were brittle and cracking.


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on August 25, 2017, 01:34:34 PM
Now I am chasing why #1&3 cylinders won't fire.

I am getting zero combustion in those two cylinders. The plugs remain shiny new out of the box. The rundown so far with troubleshooting is this:

  • cleaned connectors for coils, ignitor, regulator and lubed with dielectric grease - no change
  • swapped out each coil one at a time with spare set - no change

Then... What I should have done first - measured coil resistance.  :blush:  Now the Clymer manual doesn't specially say to remove the caps. In fact it says to measure sec. resistance from the connector to the cap, (which gave me nada) - whereas the 1200 Clymer & GYSM say to remove the cap - and measure it separately. So I followed that procedure instead. The 600 manual gives no numbers for cap resistance. The spec listed for the caps is for the 1200.  I'll see if I can find anyhthing on the net re these.  If anyone has a number for these it would be greatly appreciated.  :good:  I don't know whether there is any difference between a 1200 cap and a 600 cap.

                                                    Prim ♎️ (2.25 - 3.25)                Sec ♎️ (8.8K - 13.2K)                Cap ♎️ (9K - 11K)

Original Coil 1/4.                                   3.1                                       13,500                                  #1.    4,250
                                                                                                                                               #2.     ----
Original Coil 2/3                                    3.0.                                      13,100                                  #3.     ----
                                                                                                                                               #4.     ----

Spare Coil 1/4                                      3.1                                       13,000                                  #1.    8,820
                                                                                                                                               #2.    9,740
Spare Coil 2/3                                      3.1.                                      13,030                                  #3.   11,660
                                                                                                                                               #4.    8,980

At first glance it appears both sets of coils are OK but the caps for the original set are pooched. Since the spare set seems to have good caps, then I need to look elsewhere.

Next step is to pull off the pickup coil and measure that. A PIA as the connector is behind the sprocket/shifter case (I think) but needs to be done.  If that's OK then it's back to the carbs (blocked passages?). My brother also mentioned to check the compression (need to buy the tool).  If it's too low it may not be able to draw in any gas to combust - maybe from seized rings - or maybe a hole the size of my head in them...   :wacko1:

Any suggestions re the next direction are welcome (other than trashing it - this is schooling after all   :mail1:).  All this modern electricity stuff is new to me, so unknown territory.  Of all the things I will learn the most it will be troubleshooting and fixing these issues.   (popcorn)

BTW the pickup coil is missing the ignition timing pointer screw (R-side of pic).  Anything special about this or will any screw do?  :scratch_one-s_head:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4367/36753154246_b7ecad0ea0_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XZKwid)



Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Pat Conlon on August 25, 2017, 02:50:13 PM
....Next step is to pull off the pickup coil and measure that. A PIA as the connector is behind the sprocket/shifter case (I think) but needs to be done.  :

There is no need to remove your pick up coils for testing.
Simply follow the coil's wire lead to where it plugs into the ignition box, unplug and test the ohms from that plug.

A point of caution: Both the Clymer and Haynes manuals show the wrong ohm value for the pick up coil testing on the FJ1100's and 1200's .
Is it the same for the FJ600's? I don't know.
You are safe if you get the ohm values from the Genuine Yamaha Factory Service Manual for your FJ600.

Hope this helps.

Pat


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: oldktmdude on August 25, 2017, 03:37:56 PM
   Paul, you need to stop thinking in circles. The easiest way to tell if your problem is electrical or fuel related is to pull the plugs from cylinders 1and 3, pour a SMALL amount of fuel into the plug holes, refit the plugs and leads and hit the start button. If it fires you know that it's not an electrical problem. Do the simple things first.
   Regards, Pete.


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on August 25, 2017, 05:42:21 PM
   Paul, you need to stop thinking in circles. The easiest way to tell if your problem is electrical or fuel related is to pull the plugs from cylinders 1and 3, pour a SMALL amount of fuel into the plug holes, refit the plugs and leads and hit the start button. If it fires you know that it's not an electrical problem. Do the simple things first.
   Regards, Pete.

Yeah I forgot to mention I tried that. No indication on the plugs that it fired up. I'll double check that before I check the pickup coil.  Maybe my small amount of gas wasn't small enough.

Which brings me to...

There is no need to remove your pick up coils for testing.
Simply follow the coil's wire lead to where it plugs into the ignition box, unplug and test the ohms from that plug.

A point of caution: Both the Clymer and Haynes manuals show the wrong ohm value for the pick up coil testing on the FJ1100's and 1200's .
Is it the same for the FJ600's? I don't know.
You are safe if you get the ohm values from the Genuine Yamaha Factory Service Manual for your FJ600.

Hope this helps.

Pat

Thanks for the shortcut. I'll be surfing for a 600 GYSM now.  I had my eye on one nearby, but I think it's gone now.


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on August 26, 2017, 02:18:22 PM
I did a doublecheck on the firing by putting a bit of gas through the spark plug holes for cyl's 1&3 again.  Test was inconclusive.  I thought it may have started a bit eaier and ran better for a few seconds - but upon inspection of the plugs they didn't seem to change. i.e. not a hint of combustion.  Could have been an overeager imagination listening for something that wasn't there. I decided to go ahead and check the pickup coils.

I have to keep reminding myself this Clymer manual covers 1981-92 XJ550/600 & FJ600's - so it tends to be quite confusing especially with wiring.  The instructions for most chapters usually refer to the 81-83 XJ550 - Though there is a wiring diagram for the FJ600 (alleged 84-85 XJ600 L/LC/N/NC) it doesn't match my bike.  After much scratching of head  :scratch_one-s_head:  I have realized that my bike conforms more to the 81-83 XJ550 - at least in terms of pickup coil wiring according to the FIVE different wiring diagrams that have to be dealt with.

The book said I should have a Bl/Or & Br/Gr from p/u's to ignitor.  But I have Bl/Or & Bl/Gr at the p/u's (as seen in the pic in the previous post).  At the ignitor connection there is only 3 wires - Bl/Or/Gr....  the FJ600 wiring diagram says I should have Bl/Gr & Bl/Or at the connector & p/u's...  :dash2:  Still with me so far?  Don't blame you if you've bailed already.  I spend some time perusing the diagrams to figger out what I got.    In the 81-83 XJ550 diagram it shows the Bl/Or & Br/Gr pairing at the coils - but the Br splices into the black so at the ignitor there is only the trio of Bl/Or/Gr like what I have...  I'll ignore the the fact there seems to be no brown wiring on my 600.  For now that is what I'm going with.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4374/36426631390_07a79d0bb1_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XuU1qN)

Now that's sorta been figgered out I mesaure the resistance across the connections.  The book says measure across the Bl/Or then Br/Gr.  Since I have only three wires I measure across the Bl/Or & Bl/Gr.

I get 120 ohms across each.  The spec in the book says 650 ohms +/- 10%.   Soooo after all that is it safe to say the pickup coils need replacing?  Or do I need to restart at GO.

I found a GYSM for the 600 in Manitoba.  Just texted him to make sure it was in English too.  Some service manuals in Canada are English & French while some may just be English or French. My French is not even good enough to get slapped.


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: racerrad8 on August 26, 2017, 04:00:33 PM
By looking at your photo of the P/U coils earlier, they look exactly like the FJ P/U coils. They are just mounted on a different plate.

The specs for the FJ P/U coils is 120 ohms and the wiring is identical to yours. (see photo)

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on August 26, 2017, 04:26:34 PM
 :crazy: :wacko1: :wacko2: :wacko3:

Had my 1200 GYSM open to the previous page where I was looking at ignition coil testing.

I just bought the FJ600 GYSM and should get it in the mail by mid week.  No harm in waiting to see what it says.  If it turns out to be 120 ohms, then that saves me some time and money.  If that is the value, where the hell does Clymer get their numbers?  Guess I may have to dive back into the carbs again.   (popcorn)


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Pat Conlon on August 26, 2017, 06:34:55 PM
By looking at your photo of the P/U coils earlier, they look exactly like the FJ P/U coils. They are just mounted on a different plate.

The specs for the FJ P/U coils is 120 ohms and the wiring is identical to yours. (see photo)

Randy - RPM

Randy, Where did the 149-182 ohm values come from?


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: racerrad8 on August 26, 2017, 07:27:25 PM
By looking at your photo of the P/U coils earlier, they look exactly like the FJ P/U coils. They are just mounted on a different plate.

The specs for the FJ P/U coils is 120 ohms and the wiring is identical to yours. (see photo)

Randy - RPM

Randy, Where did the 149-182 ohm values come from?


I'm at home now, but I believe the difference between TCI and CDI.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Pat Conlon on August 26, 2017, 08:04:51 PM
Hey Randy...Remember that saying: The Classic's always come back...,

I checked all 3 sets of my TCI pick up coils on my '84 (1 set oem and 2 sets ebay spares) and they came in at 158-160 ohms range (well over 120 ohms).
If you recall, I sent you an e-mail a couple of years ago (2015) and you responded that checked both your TCI and DCI pick up coils in your shop, and they also came in at the 160-165 ohm range. I'm still running my oem '84 pick up coils and they are fine. Bike runs great.

What's up?



Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on September 01, 2017, 02:03:55 PM
Got the FJ600 GYSM in the mail this week.  For pickup coil resistance 120 ohm is correct so that's ok.  But that still hasn't solved my problems.

I did a few more gas down-the-plug-hole tests on #1&3 cylinders.  It seemed to fire up better now for a few seconds.  After a few more tests I checked the plugs and they started to show some evidence of combustion.  Time to take off the carbs and clean again.  I only did #1&3 this time.  I can't find any cans of Berrymans carb stripper anywhere (which is supposed to be the best I guess) - so I searched the web and tried the Pine-Sol method.  I know-I know! Save it for later  :blush:.  Bought a gal jug ($4) of it and soaked them (after disassembly) for 2hrs - blew out - soaked 2hrs - blew out - rinsed with hot water blew out - rinsed with acetone - blew out - reassembled.

Upon restart I thought I got #3 running with 2&4, but #1 still cold.  I took off #1 and repeated the above procedure.  I rechecked the wet levels in the carbs and  they were all in spec.  Restarted again and still #1&3 cold. In retrospect think the #3 pipe was heating up either through intermittent firing or just through conduction ....Sooooo....  before I take the carbs off again....

I looked over the results of the plug cap resistance as the GYSM has a 10K ohm spec with no +/- variation.  I took a cap from my 1200 and switched it with the #1 cylinder.  The 1200 ran fine with the 600 cap, but the 600 was still cold with the 1200 cap.

I pulled the cap off #1 cylinder and got plenty of spark from the cable.  But when I pulled off the cable from #3 with the cap still on (while running) I started getting a shock through the bars and frame.  I double checked this by standing on the aluminum plate that the centre stand is on - just to make sure I had a good ground...   :good2: :crazy:

After pulling the cap off #3 - though there was plenty of spark from the cable - there was no more shock coming from it.  Now I switched a cap from the 1200 with #3 cylinder.  There was still a shock from the cable with the cap on - but not attached to the plug.  But again no shock with the cap off the wire.

I had already cleaned the ground wire contact at the coil and nipped back the cables to get some fresh wire in contact with the caps.  I've even switched the plugs around to make sure they weren't bad (despite being brand new).

My questions are this:

  • Is it probable I am still facing a fuel pickup issue with #1&3 carbs?
  • After I clean up the ground contact and coil mounts again - if the shock from #3 returns - how should I proceed?
  • If I have two different issues at the same time - which one first?

 :scratch_one-s_head:





Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on September 03, 2017, 06:29:44 PM
An update regarding my electrocution issue.  I discovered that both cyl's 1&3 (the two that don't fire up) are giving me the Dr Ho treatment through the frame/bars.  I rubbed the mounting points, ground wire connection, and battery ground to motor with medium emory cloth.  Still getting a zap coming through. It's nothing major.  Just a strong tiingling.  Can't tell if #'s 2&4 have the same problem cuz the bike stalls after I pull the cap on one of them.

I decided to buy some new NGK caps (OEM prohibitively expensive at $28 each! :shok:).  Good thing for as I pulled one off it crumbled in my hand.  These were from the spare set and tested OK for resistance.  This still didn't cure the problem.  I even switched back to the original coils and still no change.  I reversed the cables between 1&4 and 2&3, and the 1&3 still would not fire (can't remember if I did this already so I did it anyhow), and I still got zapped.

So I've reached the limitations of my expertise already reagrding this.  The troubleshooting guide in the GYSM is of no use at this point as I have checked everything in it.

As I contemplate my next step regarding this, I decide to try the compression test.  The reason is; I am also suspicious that my fuel pick-up/ignition issue may be due to low compression in those cylinders, rather than carb related.  If I can rule that as a positive then I can leave the carbs alone for a while.  If my compression is ok then I may open the carbs again - if I can get the electrotherapy issue resolved first.

My brother gave me a tester he only used once.  While trying to remove it from it's cheap plastic shell the guage falls on the ground and pops off the glass face and it's retaining ring.  Auspicious start  :good:.  Once attached the gauge just bounces from 0 to somewheres around 60-100psi (cold engine).  The needle doesn't stop at it's peak like it's supposed to, so it's impossible to read.  I doublecheck it on my 1200 and I get the same behaviour - bouncing between 0 and ~80-120psi (cold engine).  I think the gauge is broken so today I went to Canadian Tire and bought this Equus 3612 Compression Tester Kit (http://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/equus-3612-compression-tester-kit-0251016p.html).  I didn't realize it was the exact same one my brother gave me - and it performed exactly the same way  :dash2: - so I took it back for a refund.  Being Sunday I was limited in my options.  I checked on my phone and Wal-Mart sold the same one - Princess Auto had a basic one which looked promising but upon seeing it, it was obviously too basic - too big a fitting and no adaptors (even though the package said so - and they sold no adaptors separately).
 
How hard can it be to find a basic compression tester in a city of nearly 3 million people - that actually works? :ireful:  Apparently not that easy.  My next source would be NAPA to see if they have this in stock Evercraft Tools (https://www.napacanada.com/en/p/ECF7768080).  This will be a few days from now as it's the holiday weekend and I'm back to work on Tues.

Am I progessing?  I suppose so.  I've learned how to better use the multimeter in diagnosis which is a plus.  Is the bike running on 4 cylinders yet? No....  :blush:

So if you have any theory or fact on why this bike likes to zap me (other than a Steven King short story) - feel free to enlighten me cuz I am stumped.

I just realized on typing this I could swap out the coils from my 1200 and see what happens.  :scratch_one-s_head: The primary, secondary, and cap resistance specs are the same.  If everything fires up with no consequences then great - if nothing changes then not-so-great  :unknown:



Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Country Joe on September 03, 2017, 07:42:33 PM
Paul,
 You probably don't need a new compression gauge. Try changing out the valve core in the end of the hose that screws into the spark plug hole. That valve core is what should hold the pressure in the gauge until you press the pressure release button.
Joe


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on September 03, 2017, 08:37:17 PM
Paul,
 You probably don't need a new compression gauge. Try changing out the valve core in the end of the hose that screws into the spark plug hole. That valve core is what should hold the pressure in the gauge until you press the pressure release button.
Joe


 :dash2:  That's why it has two adaptors with two different orifice sizes. Makes sense now.  Thanks. Just learned something again.  :mail1:  Would have been nice if the instructions mentioned that. Would have been nice if I wasn't such a "____________"  I'll check it out tomorrow.
 :Facepalm:


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Country Joe on September 04, 2017, 06:12:22 AM
It's all good! I didn't know that there was a tire valve stem core in those hoses until I was using 4 of them at a time to check compression on V 12 Waukesha natural gas engines. I had to have a box of valve stem cores at all times on my service truck. They don't tolerate having chunks of carbon blowing through them very well.


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on September 08, 2017, 04:51:32 PM
More putzin' around - some answers and still some questions...

First off thanks to Country Joe for the tip on the valve core for the compression gauge.  :good2:  I took a valve out of a spare rear wheel for the 600 and compared it to the POS that was in the hose for the gauge.  Left one is the original in the hose and the right one is from the tire.  The original had this stupid exterior "spring" which you can just see squished at the bottom of the valve.  It was more like a fine string of soldering wire that was wrapped around it.  The one from the tire has the internal spring.  Once changed it worked as it should.  I'll bet that trick is something they don't tell you in mechanics class.  I'll get to the compression test in a bit...

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4345/36714163040_2eb70195d7_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XWiFz3)

First though, I swapped out the coils and cables from my 1200 to the 600.  Once started it immediately fired up on 3 cyl (2-3-4) instead of 2&4 like before.  But I was still getting the trickle charge from all of the cables when I disconnected them while running and cylindedr #1 is still not firing.

Next comes the compression test.  Because the bike was not properly warmed up I was looking for comparative values as opposed to absolute values.  I don't know if values this low are representative of a relativley cold engine, or if they are way too low cold or not.  Until I can get all 4 cyls running I won't be able to heat the bike up properly to get a proper absolute value.  I also did the oil-in-cylinder test.

CYLINDER                 1                2                  3                   4            GYSM Spec (PSI)

                             60              50                 50                 70            142 - 164

with oil                  190             220                250               230

The manual states if the pressure during the oil test rises above spec then "Inspect cylinder head, valve surfaces, or piston crown for carbon deposits."

Okay.  I guess it's time to clean out the basement and bring her down peicemeal for the winter.  Again, if anybody could point me in a direction as to how to trace this short in the coils before I take it apart - much appreciated.  I was thinking that maybe both sets of coils were bad, but by swapping out from the 1200 that might not be the case.

Worst case scenario is I could piggy-back the spare wiring harness over the bike and just start reconnecting things one at a time to see if the short goes away.  :scratch_one-s_head:



Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on September 13, 2017, 06:28:51 PM
I was going to try one last thing before I start disassembly for the winter. I'd like to hook up the spare wiring harness and see if it will run on all 4 cylinders.  I've done just about every test I could think of so I'm wondering if there is a pinched wire somewhere in the works.

Wondering what the minimum connections are required to do this. I remember reading a similar question a while ago for someone's project on their 1200 but can't seem to find it, even with the mighty Google.

I have been jumping the bike from my 1200 or car to do the tests.


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on September 28, 2017, 02:45:33 PM
Started tracing the electrical system off and on over the last couple of weeks.  I remembered several posts about checking the sidestand switch as it can cause funny things to happen.  After removing the switch I jumpered the connection with a copper wire and still had the same resullt - #1 not firing and the tingling shock through the ignition cables.

I fiddled with it a bit and started to get an intermittent connection when I tried to restart the bike.  I put the switch back on and again got an intermittent connection trying to turn it over.  While fiddling with the siedstand connection I failed to notice this hidden amongst all the grime...

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4371/36651389204_9fadcd9c6f_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/XQKX6w)

... so I nipped back the wire and replaced the bullet connector and got it back together.  Probably not the source of my problems, but a future problem fixed for now.

I decided to finally piggyback the spare wiring harness over the bike and attach all the relevant connections to try and see if it will start-up with all cylinders that way.  Aaaannnnd..... nuthin'.  Not a sausage.

I have power to the signals and horn but when I push the starter button theres nothing.  Just the oil light flicking off when the button is pushed. When I flick the kill switch on/off all I hear is the sidestand relay clicking.   I connect my spare starter switch and nothing.  Oh well I reconnect the bike's harness, and original starter switch and doublecheck all the connections.  Aaaaaannnnnd.... guess!  Nada!  :dash2:

I didn't attempt to start-up the bike before I decided to piggyback the spare harness, so I don't know if this condition already existed before this.  I even replace the starter solenoid with a spare and still nothing.

I've been using the car battery to jump start it while troubleshooting for the last while, but I don't think that is the problem (is it?).

So I have power to all the auxilliary electrics, just not to the starter/ignition circuit.  Any ideas?  I'll be putting her downstairs before the end of Oct so I don't have much time left to keep putzin' around.  If I can't figure it out by then it will have to wait until when it comes back into the sunshine in another 18 months (?)


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Kadettgek on October 19, 2017, 02:16:53 PM
What colour does the spark of cal 1 & 3 have?
Put a spark plug into the cap and hold it against the engine block. See what that does.
You can also test the spark in cil 2 &4 this way. (it will spark during if you try to start it)

If you get a spark it is more likely a fuel problem. You won't be the first one to have float needles stuck after a carb rebuild.
Try tapping (gently) on the side of the carbs. this might loosen them a bit.


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Bezmozek on October 19, 2017, 09:32:57 PM
One last idea, highly unlikely, but possible and does not see from pictures if you have done this.
If PO tightened pilot screws too tight, it is possible, that when you have tried to loosen those, brass bolt is broken into halves and spike got stuck inside, so even if you are able to turn it counter clockwise to add fuel for idle, it is still fully closed.
Seen this only once on Japanese bike, but....
try to take out all pilot screws ad check if they are OK.


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: PaulG on October 21, 2017, 07:54:09 PM
What colour does the spark of cal 1 & 3 have?  I put in new plugs and #1&3 didn't show any combustion i.e. shiny new electrode.  #2&4 did show combustion.  As previous, when I did the gas-in-plug hole test I did get them to fire up for a secend.  After several of these there looked like there was some soot starting to build up on them.
Put a spark plug into the cap and hold it against the engine block. See what that does.
You can also test the spark in cil 2 &4 this way. (it will spark during if you try to start it).  I've done this and there was spark from all 4 cables.  But like I've been saying I get mildly zapped when I take the cable off the plugs for 1&3 when it's running.

If you get a spark it is more likely a fuel problem. You won't be the first one to have float needles stuck after a carb rebuild.
Try tapping (gently) on the side of the carbs. this might loosen them a bit. I installed new float needle sets when I cleaned out the carbs, so I don't think this should be the case.  I'll be checking them again over the winter though.

One last idea, highly unlikely, but possible and does not see from pictures if you have done this.
If PO tightened pilot screws too tight, it is possible, that when you have tried to loosen those, brass bolt is broken into halves and spike got stuck inside, so even if you are able to turn it counter clockwise to add fuel for idle, it is still fully closed.
Seen this only once on Japanese bike, but....
try to take out all pilot screws ad check if they are OK. That's certainly something I've never heard of before.  :scratch_one-s_head: I'll double check this winter, but everything seemed ok when I blew out all the ports.  And I didn't have any leftover bits when I was finished too!  :mocking:

Thanks for the input guys.  I'll keep it in mind when it all comes back together....  :rofl:


Title: Re: 1985 FJ600 Ressurection
Post by: Kadettgek on November 01, 2017, 04:10:15 AM
What colour does the spark of cal 1 & 3 have?  I put in new plugs and #1&3 didn't show any combustion i.e. shiny new electrode.  #2&4 did show combustion.  As previous, when I did the gas-in-plug hole test I did get them to fire up for a secend.  After several of these there looked like there was some soot starting to build up on them.
Put a spark plug into the cap and hold it against the engine block. See what that does.
You can also test the spark in cil 2 &4 this way. (it will spark during if you try to start it).  I've done this and there was spark from all 4 cables.  But like I've been saying I get mildly zapped when I take the cable off the plugs for 1&3 when it's running.

If you get a spark it is more likely a fuel problem. You won't be the first one to have float needles stuck after a carb rebuild.
Try tapping (gently) on the side of the carbs. this might loosen them a bit. I installed new float needle sets when I cleaned out the carbs, so I don't think this should be the case.  I'll be checking them again over the winter though.

One last idea, highly unlikely, but possible and does not see from pictures if you have done this.
If PO tightened pilot screws too tight, it is possible, that when you have tried to loosen those, brass bolt is broken into halves and spike got stuck inside, so even if you are able to turn it counter clockwise to add fuel for idle, it is still fully closed.
Seen this only once on Japanese bike, but....
try to take out all pilot screws ad check if they are OK. That's certainly something I've never heard of before.  :scratch_one-s_head: I'll double check this winter, but everything seemed ok when I blew out all the ports.  And I didn't have any leftover bits when I was finished too!  :mocking:

Thanks for the input guys.  I'll keep it in mind when it all comes back together....  :rofl:


So you have got an adequate spark. And you got a bit of a cough from the engine when you poured in some fuel.
Also you have worked on the carbs. Therefore I believe it is a fuel problem.
An easy check is to unscrew the drainplug of the carbs and check if there is fuel coming out.