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General Category => Yamaha FJ1100 / FJ1200 Running Problems => Topic started by: ryanschoebel on April 28, 2018, 12:31:29 PM

Title: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on April 28, 2018, 12:31:29 PM
Well, it happened. While riding, my chain decided it was done, and broke. With it, it took out the sprocket cover, cracked a rear fairing, bent the licence plate, and broke off both tabs that mount the starter to the engine. I have no concerns about any of it, except for the starter tabs. I am getting quotes for around $200 to weld the tabs back on, and getting told at the same time that there is no guarantee that the welds will hold.  I also don't have the tools to press rivet a new chain back on, so i would have to pay a shop to do that. All said and done, I'm looking at least $6-700 to get this back running again. And thats not including what i just paid to get the forks redone (which are perfect, btw, thanks RPM!!), or the $200 for the tow back home. So the question is, would I be better off simply selling this bike to someone who knows how to make the repairs, or going for the long haul? What do you guys think?  I love this bike, and would hate to see it go, but if it would cost less, or even let me come out a bit ahead to sell, and start new, then i have no hesitations.

Thanks,
Ryan
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 28, 2018, 12:51:12 PM
Your repair costs sound high. I think you're over reacting.
You need professional help on the starter tabs, no getting around that.
What would the shop charge you to install the chain? Look at the cost of a chain tool and compare.

You are out the cost of towing, that's gone. A used sprocket cover is chump change on FleaBay.

With the bike as it sits, no repairs, you might get $500, but I would not pay that.
For $1,000 more I would get this bike (with luggage) http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=17748.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=17748.0)

I would fix the bike and ride it.  (hint: buy a high quality chain and get some new sprockets)

Sorry to hear of this, but all and all, at least you did not go down or crack your engine case.
You're alive and unhurt.

Pat
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: balky1 on April 28, 2018, 02:07:26 PM
Just as a curiosity - which chain was it?
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on April 28, 2018, 02:12:51 PM
Quote from: balky1 on April 28, 2018, 02:07:26 PM
Just as a curiosity - which chain was it?

It was the drive chain.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 28, 2018, 02:14:16 PM
I figure around $200 for parts and $200 for welding and you're back on the road.

Here is a eBay sprocket cover $15 (you paint) https://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-1986-1987-89-92-FJ1200-1992-1993-FJ1200A-ENGINE-SPROCKET-COVER/183185501137?hash=item2aa6b4ebd1:g:xrYAAOSw9hRa17gM&vxp=mtr (https://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-1986-1987-89-92-FJ1200-1992-1993-FJ1200A-ENGINE-SPROCKET-COVER/183185501137?hash=item2aa6b4ebd1:g:xrYAAOSw9hRa17gM&vxp=mtr)

Here is new oem front sprocket $10: http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3A17t (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3A17t)
Here is a new rear sprocket $43: http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RearSprocket (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RearSprocket)

Here is a top of the line DID ZVM-X chain $138 https://tinyurl.com/y7ome4xs (https://tinyurl.com/y7ome4xs)
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on April 28, 2018, 02:18:26 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 28, 2018, 02:14:16 PM
I figure around $200 for parts and $200 for welding and you're back on the road.

Here is a eBay sprocket cover $15 (you paint) https://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-1986-1987-89-92-FJ1200-1992-1993-FJ1200A-ENGINE-SPROCKET-COVER/183185501137?hash=item2aa6b4ebd1:g:xrYAAOSw9hRa17gM&vxp=mtr (https://www.ebay.com/itm/YAMAHA-1986-1987-89-92-FJ1200-1992-1993-FJ1200A-ENGINE-SPROCKET-COVER/183185501137?hash=item2aa6b4ebd1:g:xrYAAOSw9hRa17gM&vxp=mtr)

Here is new oem front sprocket $10: http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3A17t (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3A17t)
Here is a new rear sprocket $43: http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RearSprocket (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RearSprocket)

Here is a top of the line DID ZVM-X chain $138 https://tinyurl.com/y7ome4xs (https://tinyurl.com/y7ome4xs)

My sprockets look fine. Should I replace them anyways?
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 28, 2018, 02:26:51 PM
Yes, replace your sprockets. If that chain was stressed enough to fail, your sprockets are probably worn.

You're investing in a high quality chain, get new sprockets.

To sweeten the deal I will send you my DID chain tool to use. Makes installing a DID chain very easy. It Center punches those master link rivets dead nuts center.

As you may tell...I'm a fan of DID chains.

You're discouraged, but don't give up.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on April 28, 2018, 02:43:05 PM
Pat, that would be much appreciated. RPM suggested a DID chain as well. I figured I would have to take it to a shop to have them mount the chain.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 28, 2018, 02:48:12 PM
Instead of spending $200 on welding the starter brackets, if you add $30 more you could forgo the welding and get a new oem Yamaha 4 brush starter from RPM.
These are bitchen starters. No problem spinning up my heat soaked 1380 engine on a hot summer day.
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=4KG-81890-00&cat=39 (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=4KG-81890-00&cat=39)
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on April 28, 2018, 02:51:22 PM
It would be a good idea, but the issue isn't the starter. The issue is the tabs on the engine case itself, that the starter mounts onto. Or does that starter mount differently?
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 28, 2018, 02:53:24 PM
Oh, ok...yea, you clearly said starter tabs, my bad...
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: balky1 on April 28, 2018, 03:15:58 PM
Quote from: ryanschoebel on April 28, 2018, 02:12:51 PM
Quote from: balky1 on April 28, 2018, 02:07:26 PM
Just as a curiosity - which chain was it?

It was the drive chain.

:Facepalm:
Which brand and strength was it...? OMG.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on April 28, 2018, 03:22:54 PM
Balky, my bad, I mis understood. I have no idea, it was PO. Pat,no issues.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: FJ1100mjk on April 28, 2018, 04:18:32 PM
Work smarter, not harder (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=17748.0)

For $1,500, and all the bike that you're getting for it, you could take a bus or plane one-way to get it. Or have it shipped for $500. You could make it an epic ride back too, with some planning.

I'd bet that you'll need to pull the engine out of the frame to have a good shot at welding those tabs back on, to have any confidence in them afterwards.

Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Mike m on April 28, 2018, 08:19:47 PM
I've been watching this topic and this scenario has me concerned.a rivot  needs a rivot tool are they costly and what are you looking for in  the rivot to be sure its done correctly as I'm referring to a new chain replacement
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on April 28, 2018, 08:23:47 PM
MJK, that was part of my original question, but as Pat so kindly helped me realize, its much more cost efficient to simply repair what i have. And Mike, thats part of my concern, but if Pats willing to loan me his tool, Im sure youtube or google can help me figure out how to rivet the new chain on.

Pat, looking at my sprockets ( i removed both from the bike, cleaned and inspected), and both APPEAR to be in very good condition. I mean, Ill pop for the $50 bucks in extra parts if i need to, but would the wearing on the sprockets be obvious?
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Mike m on April 28, 2018, 08:28:07 PM
That's the issues with these bikes repair records are usually not kept well.I know I got at least 16,000 miles on my chain.it's going bye bye asap
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on April 28, 2018, 08:30:43 PM
Quote from: Mike m on April 28, 2018, 08:28:07 PM
That's the issues with these bikes repair records are usually not kept well.I know I got at least 16,000 miles on my chain.it's going bye bye asap

That's true. I mean, my bike only has 20000 miles on it. Maybe it's still original chain? I mean, looking at the chain now, it looks fine, just some road grime. I really don't know why it snapped.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Mike m on April 28, 2018, 08:33:42 PM
What scenario did this occurs.Cruising accelerating.decelerating.just curious.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on April 28, 2018, 09:14:44 PM
Quote from: Mike m on April 28, 2018, 08:33:42 PM
What scenario did this occurs.Cruising accelerating.decelerating.just curious.

Cruising, but at high RPMs.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 28, 2018, 11:19:17 PM
Quote from: ryanschoebel on April 28, 2018, 08:30:43 PM
....my bike only has 20000 miles on it. Maybe it's still original chain?

The oem Yamaha chain is a very good chain, typically good for 30k+ miles, so a 20k failure is low, but not unheard of...

Ryan, of course you don't 'have to' replace your sprockets, but not knowing the bike's history, assuming that if you think you have the oem chain, you also have oem sprockets.

Again, you will be getting a very good chain, spend the extra and get new sprockets.
You will immediately notice how quiet your drive line will be.
Finally, with new sprockets, you now have options on gearing open to you.

Yes, Utube has videos on how to use the DID chain tool. Center punching those master link rivets is important.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: balky1 on April 29, 2018, 01:51:51 AM
Quote from: ryanschoebel on April 28, 2018, 03:22:54 PM
Balky, my bad, I mis understood. I have no idea, it was PO. Pat,no issues.

I actually had a laugh at the first response.  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: balky1 on April 29, 2018, 01:53:40 AM
Quote from: Mike m on April 28, 2018, 08:19:47 PM
I've been watching this topic and this scenario has me concerned.a rivot  needs a rivot tool are they costly and what are you looking for in  the rivot to be sure its done correctly as I'm referring to a new chain replacement

Buy an endless one and don't worry about it. Grease the swing-arm pivot points along the way. I bet it is the time for it also.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on April 29, 2018, 02:02:38 AM
Hey Balky, I already bought the other chain, so I'll take my chances. Now, I'm just researching if I want to change my gearing, like Pat suggested. It sounds tempting, seeing as I have everything open, and I know how to do it. Would I need different length chains to change it?
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 29, 2018, 02:24:10 AM
If you stay in the range of 17/18 front and 38 to 42 rear a 110 link chain will be fine.
Note: That $10 front sprocket from RPM is a special deal, although it's the oem 17 tooth.
If you want a 18 tooth front, its $16 more.
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AFDS (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AFDS)

My favorite combo is 18/40.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on April 29, 2018, 02:32:12 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 29, 2018, 02:24:10 AM
If you stay in the range of 17/18 front and 38 to 42 rear a 110 link chain will be fine.
Note: That $10 front sprocket from RPM is a special deal, although it's the oem 17 tooth.
If you want a 18 tooth front, its $16 more.
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AFDS (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AFDS)

My favorite combo is 18/40.

That 18/40, can almost closely be achieved with a 17/38. Is that more of a low end, or high end gearing? I kinda think I would want a low gearing, for a little more oomph as I take off.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: balky1 on April 29, 2018, 03:30:40 AM
Quote from: ryanschoebel on April 29, 2018, 02:32:12 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 29, 2018, 02:24:10 AM
If you stay in the range of 17/18 front and 38 to 42 rear a 110 link chain will be fine.
Note: That $10 front sprocket from RPM is a special deal, although it's the oem 17 tooth.
If you want a 18 tooth front, its $16 more.
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AFDS (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AFDS)

My favorite combo is 18/40.

That 18/40, can almost closely be achieved with a 17/38. Is that more of a low end, or high end gearing? I kinda think I would want a low gearing, for a little more oomph as I take off.

If you ever rode a bicycle with speeds, you can easily imagine what will it bring to you. Smaller front and larger back gives you low end power and less top speed. Larger front and smaller back yields the opposite.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ZOA NOM on April 29, 2018, 03:49:07 AM
As a word of advice, always replace sprockets when you replace the chain. They wear together and should be replaced together. Also, 18/40 is perfect.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ribbert on April 29, 2018, 05:13:07 AM
Quote from: ZOA NOM on April 29, 2018, 03:49:07 AM
As a word of advice, always replace sprockets when you replace the chain. They wear together and should be replaced together. Also, 18/40 is perfect.

That's not just good advice, it's gospel! Sprockets are cheap, chains aren't.  If you don't replace them they will shorten the life of your chain.

I also settled on that gearing (near enough anyway - 18/41) as the best allrounder. Some believe the odd/even combo gives better wear.

You're right, the same result can be achieved with a 17 front, the idea of the 18 is to reduce the load a bit.

Noel
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ribbert on April 29, 2018, 05:42:38 AM
Quote from: ryanschoebel on April 28, 2018, 08:30:43 PM
Quote from: Mike m on April 28, 2018, 08:28:07 PM
That's the issues with these bikes repair records are usually not kept well.I know I got at least 16,000 miles on my chain.it's going bye bye asap

That's true. I mean, my bike only has 20000 miles on it. Maybe it's still original chain? I mean, looking at the chain now, it looks fine, just some road grime. I really don't know why it snapped.

Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on April 29, 2018, 11:40:06 AM
While reading, I see that it says that changing gearing can effect the speedo. That doesn't seem the case here, considering it reads at the front wheel? Also, I haven't decided yet, and will see what I have on rear sprocket right now, but I think I want to gear it down. I'm not sure what I want yet, will keep updated.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 29, 2018, 01:06:35 PM
The '84/85 came stock with 17/42 sprockets. IMO fine around town, but a bit buzzy on long trips.
If you wanted a bit more pep, you could go 17/44 but I would not want to ride long distances with that combo.

As Noel said, the larger the front sprocket the less stress on the chain (wider distribution of load) so a 17 is the smallest I would run on the front.
I would not recommend a 16 tooth (or smaller) front sprocket on a FJ used as a street bike.

Get 2 back sprockets, a 44 tooth for around town fun and a 38 tooth for touring.

Don't you love how I spend your money?
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on April 29, 2018, 03:58:17 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on April 29, 2018, 01:06:35 PM
The '84/85 came stock with 17/42 sprockets. IMO fine around town, but a bit buzzy on long trips.
If you wanted a bit more pep, you could go 17/44 but I would not want to ride long distances with that combo.

As Noel said, the larger the front sprocket the less stress on the chain (wider distribution of load) so a 17 is the smallest I would run on the front.
I would not recommend a 16 tooth (or smaller) front sprocket on a FJ used as a street bike.

Get 2 back sprockets, a 44 tooth for around town fun and a 38 tooth for touring.

Don't you love how I spend your money?


But accounting for what you said earlier, wouldn't i need a different size chain to run a 44 rear? I do currently have a 17/42, and would like to go 44, just to try it, but i also already ordered the 110 link chain...
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 29, 2018, 07:38:15 PM
I seem to recall a couple of folks ran the 17/44 combo on their 110 link chains...

Why not post the question over in the modifications section?

I *think* you'll be ok, but I never tried the 17/44 combo so I'll defer to those who have.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on May 02, 2018, 09:52:15 PM
UPDATE: so I'm leaving the gearing for now. My new sprocket cover also came in today. It is slightly different from what i have, but will still fit just fine i think. I also had someone come out and take a look at my welding that i need done today, and he thinks its doable, for under or around $200. Im just going to rent a trailer and take it out to his house this weekend, and he thinks we can do it in under a day. I just have to remove the alternator, carbs, side panel (if possible, and completely drain the oil. I also have to sign something that says i wont hold him liable if my engine catches fire or explodes. Bar that, we will see how it goes. PROGESS!1 :yahoo:
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 02, 2018, 10:30:47 PM
Well allrighty....PM me your address and I'll get my DID chain tool off to you.

Sounds like you can get this squared away in time for you to join me for the ride up to Pet-the-Tuna.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on May 02, 2018, 10:37:37 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 02, 2018, 10:30:47 PM

Sounds like you can get this squared away in time for you to join me for the ride up to Pet-the-Tuna.
Here's hoping!
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: fj1289 on May 03, 2018, 12:37:40 AM
Quote from: ryanschoebel on May 02, 2018, 09:52:15 PM
UPDATE: so I'm leaving the gearing for now. My new sprocket cover also came in today. It is slightly different from what i have, but will still fit just fine i think. I also had someone come out and take a look at my welding that i need done today, and he thinks its doable, for under or around $200. Im just going to rent a trailer and take it out to his house this weekend, and he thinks we can do it in under a day. I just have to remove the alternator, carbs, side panel (if possible, and completely drain the oil. I also have to sign something that says i wont hold him liable if my engine catches fire or explodes. Bar that, we will see how it goes. PROGESS!1 :yahoo:

Unplug your ignition module from the harness and disconnect your battery.  Don't want any high-voltage elections jumping around the ground circuits and causing trouble. 
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on May 03, 2018, 01:20:08 AM
I disconnected the battery when I removedthe starter. Should I still disconnect the ignition module?
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 03, 2018, 02:00:06 AM
Quote from: fj1289 on May 03, 2018, 12:37:40 AM
Unplug your ignition module from the harness and disconnect your battery.  Don't want any high-voltage elections jumping around the ground circuits and causing trouble. 

Excellent advice from an expert :good: Good catch Chris!

Yes, unplug your ignition box (both plugs) be extra careful with the side lock tabs on those plugs, be gentle, that plastic is over 30 years old and quite brittle. Easy does it.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ribbert on May 03, 2018, 07:04:46 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 03, 2018, 02:00:06 AM
Quote from: fj1289 on May 03, 2018, 12:37:40 AM
Unplug your ignition module from the harness and disconnect your battery.  Don't want any high-voltage elections jumping around the ground circuits and causing trouble. 

Excellent advice from an expert :good: Good catch Chris!

Yes, unplug your ignition box (both plugs) be extra careful with the side lock tabs on those plugs, be gentle, that plastic is over 30 years old and quite brittle. Easy does it.


Given the reaction my dissenting views get here I suggest you google it, you will get your answer.

Me, I do two things for mig, place the earth clamp near the job and make sure I have a good earth. If I remember, I disconnect the battery. (Disconnecting the dozens of ecu's on more modern vehicles is not even an option)










Noel

Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: X-Ray on May 03, 2018, 07:27:58 AM
Hey Ryan, you are in good hands here advise wise, you can't go wrong.

If you are new to replacing/riveting chains etc, have a look here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yj4sKsguvU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yj4sKsguvU)      Delboy has a fantastic channel on bike maintenence, and this video covers chain/sprocket replacement, but more importantly exactly how the riveting tool should be used, ( it really is quite easy).  I even watched for when I riveted my new chain recently just to make sure....... ( that I was doing it right).  Anyway good luck  :good2:
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 03, 2018, 11:50:34 AM
We also have the instructions for the DID chain tool saved in the Misc. Files section: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16659.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16659.0)
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: fj1289 on May 03, 2018, 04:52:07 PM
Quote from: ribbert on May 03, 2018, 07:04:46 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 03, 2018, 02:00:06 AM
Quote from: fj1289 on May 03, 2018, 12:37:40 AM
Unplug your ignition module from the harness and disconnect your battery.  Don't want any high-voltage elections jumping around the ground circuits and causing trouble. 

Excellent advice from an expert :good: Good catch Chris!

Yes, unplug your ignition box (both plugs) be extra careful with the side lock tabs on those plugs, be gentle, that plastic is over 30 years old and quite brittle. Easy does it.


Given the reaction my dissenting views get here I suggest you google it, you will get your answer.

Me, I do two things for mig, place the earth clamp near the job and make sure I have a good earth. If I remember, I disconnect the battery. (Disconnecting the dozens of ecu's on more modern vehicles is not even an option)










Noel



Noel - I agree it is probably overkill, but we also have no idea who is doing the welding, what equipment they are using, how much prep work they are doing. 

On another forum I'm on they had a guy recently fry his stand alone ECU when they did some welding on the car.  A better grounding scheme may have helped in that case. 

:drinks:
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on May 03, 2018, 06:07:26 PM
Well, i dont know much about welding, but this guy seems to know. He is using TIG though, not MIG. I drained the oil today, pulled my carbs, and tried to pull the side cover, but didnt have the tolls to do it. Ill see if he does, the day of.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on May 03, 2018, 06:09:18 PM
I'm just hoping as far as this is going, that i can get it all back together when I'm done!! lmao, this should be interesting  :rofl2:
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Mike m on May 03, 2018, 06:21:57 PM
I admire your diligence to push forward with this repair most would walk away.I hope all turns out well.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on May 03, 2018, 09:36:59 PM
Thanks mike, i appreciate that! but really, i only have it because of Pat. Ive never done something this intensive before, and didnt really think it could be done. ( at least by me). But he was able to convince me that it could be.

Another question that i have, once the tabs are welded back on, i wont have time to reassemble the carbs, tanks, electrics and everything as soon as its done. Is it unwise to do a "dry fire", with no carbs or tank on, just to test the starter, and see if the mounts can hold up? I mean, theres no way for it to start, nor would there likely be any oil in it. (But I can put oil in). Would it cause issues?
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: aviationfred on May 03, 2018, 11:19:00 PM
There should be no issues with using the starter to crank the engine with no carbs on. But, I advise filling the crank case with the appropriate amount of engine oil before attempting to have the starter crank the engine. Also, maybe do this in 2 steps. Remove the spark plugs on your first attempt. This gives next to no compression. If that all goes well, put the plugs in and do another attempt.


Fred
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on May 04, 2018, 03:33:22 PM
Quote from: aviationfred on May 03, 2018, 11:19:00 PM
There should be no issues with using the starter to crank the engine with no carbs on. But, I advise filling the crank case with the appropriate amount of engine oil before attempting to have the starter crank the engine. Also, maybe do this in 2 steps. Remove the spark plugs on your first attempt. This gives next to no compression. If that all goes well, put the plugs in and do another attempt.


Fred

Great Advice, thank you! If you dont mind my asking, why do it without the compression first? just out of curiosity
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Mike m on May 04, 2018, 04:59:26 PM
Idk why Thier saying that.if the welds arent gonna hold I guess.they gotta hold with plugs in thats the only way it'll start.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: fj1289 on May 04, 2018, 06:58:59 PM
Quote from: Mike m on May 04, 2018, 04:59:26 PM
Idk why Thier saying that.if the welds arent gonna hold I guess.they gotta hold with plugs in thats the only way it'll start.

Again - giving advice to someone over the internet - I think it is ok to be a bit on the cautious side.  If I'm going to see if something is going to hold, I think working up to full load vice swinging for the fences on the first go isn't such a bad idea.  But, as always, if you are the one with skin in the game, you make the call. 
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on May 04, 2018, 07:05:18 PM
Quote from: fj1289 on May 04, 2018, 06:58:59 PM
Again - giving advice to someone over the internet - I think it is ok to be a bit on the cautious side.  If I'm going to see if something is going to hold, I think working up to full load vice swinging for the fences on the first go isn't such a bad idea.  But, as always, if you are the one with skin in the game, you make the call. 

No, the theory makes sense to me. I just dont quite understand how it lessens the load. either way, it seems to me like the starter will still be exerting the same force, thats all. Maybe its because there is no oil?
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Mike m on May 04, 2018, 07:21:26 PM
Quote from: fj1289 on May 04, 2018, 06:58:59 PM
Quote from: Mike m on May 04, 2018, 04:59:26 PM
Idk why Thier saying that.if the welds arent gonna hold I guess.they gotta hold with plugs in thats the only way it'll start.

Again - giving advice to someone over the internet - I think it is ok to be a bit on the cautious side.  If I'm going to see if something is going to hold, I think working up to full load vice swinging for the fences on the first go isn't such a bad idea.  But, as always, if you are the one with skin in the game, you make the call. 
the biggest problem will be vibration as Thier isn't any other support for the starter.I hope all goes well we havent seen the actual damage so were guessing
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 04, 2018, 08:14:15 PM
Quote from: ryanschoebel on May 04, 2018, 07:05:18 PM
No, the theory makes sense to me. I just dont quite understand how it lessens the load. either way, it seems to me like the starter will still be exerting the same force, thats all. Maybe its because there is no oil?

Definately fill it with oil before you try the starter.

With the plugs out, the load on the starter will be much less because there will be no compression in the cylinders that the starter has to work against.
You will hear the difference when you spin that engine without the plugs in, then again with the plugs installed.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on May 04, 2018, 09:05:58 PM
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks Pat. I'll update tomorrow evening with the results
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ZOA NOM on May 04, 2018, 09:30:59 PM
I'm not sure I'd even worry about it if the guy is a tig welder. He probably has some welding experience. I've put down some pretty ugly mig welds on my race car that have held up just fine.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on May 05, 2018, 10:07:17 PM
Okay, so update time. Took the bike out to Glendale this morning, and spent a few hours getting the welding done. I gotta give it to the guy, he knew what he was doing, and did a great job. The welds are holding great, and i did turn the motor over a few times. Rookie mistake, i got almost everything put back together, started it up, and accidentally speared the cat. I forgot i didn't have the clutch together because i don't have the sprocket cover or chain on, and the push rod shot out.  :Facepalm: It was bad. Bar that, my chain came in today, now i just need to order sprockets, and once Pats chain tool gets here, i can hopefully get this thing back on the road! I really appreciate all of the advice and encouragement!
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 05, 2018, 10:50:30 PM
That's good news Ryan :good:

Spearing the cat is considered a FJ owner rite of passage. You are now initiated into the FJ brotherhood.

You got lucky with that broken chain. They've been known to crack engine cases, right Steve?

DID chain tool will be there on Tuesday.

Cheers  Pat
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on May 06, 2018, 07:41:08 PM
Update again! So, Pats chain tool came in today (not sure how, but not complaining!), and with a few youtube videos, and a little help from my brother to get enough force, i have a working bike again! I do however, have a few issues now.

For some reason, my throttle isnt springing back like it should ( but im figuring maybe grease the cable box?), my choke isnt turning like it should (bad cable routing?), and my shifter is now shifting really hard. Thoughts?  Also, i still need to change out the sprockets, i just wanted to see if there were going to be any other issues on the bike.

again, big thanks to Pat for the chain tool, and ill get that headed back to you when the post office opens up tomorrow. Its appreciated more than you know!
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 06, 2018, 08:07:47 PM
Wow, that was fast...USPS said delivery by Tuesday.

Re: shifting and throttle, did you have these symptoms before the chain break?
If not, what did you change?
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on May 06, 2018, 08:21:26 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on May 06, 2018, 08:07:47 PM
Wow, that was fast...USPS said delivery by Tuesday.

Re: shifting and throttle, did you have these symptoms before the chain break?
If not, what did you change?

I did not. The only thing that changed was I pulled and remounted several things. Carbs, starter, alternator, tank, oil filter, shifter lever, and a few others. I'm thinking the shifting could be because I'm using a different oil? I drained oil, and put in Rotella 15/40
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 06, 2018, 09:01:11 PM
The carb removal and replacement (r/r) may be the cause of your throttle woes. Disconnect the cables at the splitter box, now, with your hand, open the carb linkage, does it snap back shut when you let go?
It should.

I don't think the oil is the culprit. I think you got air in the clutch hydraulic's when you r/r'ed the slave.
Did you disconnect the clutch line from the slave? You didn't need to, if you did, you need new crush washers on the banjo.
If you left the line connected to the slave (good) when the slave was off, did you squeeze the clutch lever, even slightly?
Take the slave back off (Don't start the bike with the slave off, but you knew that :sarcastic:) open up the bleed port on the slave and push in the slave piston with your thumb. Hold the piston in while you close the bleed port. Don't let go until you close the bleed port. Be careful, nasty ass brake fluid will squirt out the port when you push in the piston so be ready for that. Reinstall the clutch slave.
Now bleed your system.

See if that helps.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on May 06, 2018, 09:16:04 PM
I did leave the clutch connected, but I did hit the lever at one point on accident.  So just rebleed the system? And I'll check the carb linkage tonight. If it doesn't snap back ( which tbh, mine never really has) what should I do?
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 06, 2018, 09:52:53 PM
Take the slave off, open the bleeder and push back the piston, avoid the squirt,  hold piston and close the bleeder, reinstall....then do a final bleed.

If your carb linkage does not snap close.....a few things could cause it....are your springs installed?

Protect your new chain, put the new sprockets on before you ride it any distance.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: balky1 on May 07, 2018, 08:51:22 AM
You said you speared the cat - are you sure you didn't lose the little bearing ball?
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: FJmonkey on May 07, 2018, 09:09:49 AM
I don't think anyone has reported loosing the ball bearing this way. Having done this once myself I can say, I did not loose it. 
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Firehawk068 on May 07, 2018, 09:39:07 AM
I know for a fact, that the ball bearing will not fit down the passage that the clutch pushrod goes through.
There is no fear of losing it this way.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: twangin4u on June 09, 2018, 06:39:29 PM
Quote from: ribbert on April 29, 2018, 05:13:07 AM
Quote from: ZOA NOM on April 29, 2018, 03:49:07 AM
As a word of advice, always replace sprockets when you replace the chain. They wear together and should be replaced together. Also, 18/40 is perfect.

That's not just good advice, it's gospel! Sprockets are cheap, chains aren't.  If you don't replace them they will shorten the life of your chain.

I also settled on that gearing (near enough anyway - 18/41) as the best allrounder. Some believe the odd/even combo gives better wear.

You're right, the same result can be achieved with a 17 front, the idea of the 18 is to reduce the load a bit.

Noel
I've read that too. I think the odd/even gives you less chance of same tooth same link contact. Which they say is not as good for the life span of both sprocket and chain.

While we're on the subject... I too had a chain break on me last night. The joining link failed. Brand new EK chain. Was taking off from a stop and got about 50' and motor wound out and nothing but a shower of oil while I coasted about 100 yards. Bent the shit out of the clutch push rod and broke the cover. Very lucky here tho cause it doesn't appear to have actually broken the case. I'm digging in now. Just not sure what damage has been done behind the push rod. Thankfully I wasn't going fast or around a bend or both. Cause I'd probably be more concerned other things right now. Or with nothing at all..
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on June 10, 2018, 10:20:18 PM
Update time!! I finally had the time and money to order new sprockets, and fitted them today. So all in all, thats new chain, new sprockets, new sprocket cover, engine welding, new oil, and a bit of carb work. Once i got everything back together though, i took it for a little bit of a ride, and i noticed that my shifter isnt springing back to the middle position like it should. Any ideas what thats about? I tried to do some research, but couldnt find anything fj specific. I'm dying to get riding again  :dash2: I did get the throttle and choke sorted though, it was just a bunch of dirt and particulates. A good through cleaning, and its right as rain.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: Firehawk068 on June 11, 2018, 02:09:49 PM
There is a possibility that your shift-shaft could have bent when the chain broke.
This would cause it to not return to center when shifting.
It would most likely bind with the cover where it protrudes through it, or bind with the engine case itself.
There is a really stiff spring on the "clutch side" of the shaft that returns it to center, as well as a lighter-duty spring on the "claw" pivot that engages the shift drum. If either of these springs are broken, you would have shifter issues as well.
If you removed the shift-shaft at any time during the repair, it is possible that the stiff spring ended up in the wrong position during reassembly?
I had a very strange and rare issue a few years ago where the "claw" spring somehow came unclipped and spun itself out of position.  
If it is indeed bent, The fix is to replace the shift-shaft with a new or good-used one (which is easy to do). It does however require draining the oil and getting inside the clutch housing side of the engine.
I cannot remember if it involves removing the clutch hub and basket or not. I would have to check.

I would also make sure your shift lever pivot (on the foot-peg bolt) is greased and moving freely, as well as the little ball ends on the linkage rod.
Do a thorough inspection of all those parts.
Title: Re: Broke chain, what now?
Post by: ryanschoebel on June 12, 2018, 09:47:52 PM
Quote from: Firehawk068 on June 11, 2018, 02:09:49 PM
There is a possibility that your shift-shaft could have bent when the chain broke.
This would cause it to not return to center when shifting.
It would most likely bind with the cover where it protrudes through it, or bind with the engine case itself.

Well Firehawk, you friggin nailed it. I took it all apart again, and it was binding with the the cover. I couldn't see it before, but it was binding on the lower half. So i took it all off, got a round file, and filed away until it no longer bound. (maybe 1-2 mm?) The cover is slightly different than what was there before, so im guessing thats the reason? Does anyone have any complaints to that?