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General Category => Yamaha FJ1100 / FJ1200 Running Problems => Topic started by: Old Rider on May 30, 2018, 01:09:17 PM



Title: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on May 30, 2018, 01:09:17 PM
So lately i have notised a sharp metal tick/rattle sound its hard to explain the sound but its like high voltage short sparking sound lasting only a cople of seconds at time.
It is mostly right when i roll on or cut the trhottle in first and second gear at lower speeds .But also sometimes when ridig at more speed also think that it
comes in small roadbumps .
First i checked the front sprocket it looked fine no visual wornmarks but  it had gone totally loose.Its a jt sprocket.I then retorqued the sprocket to 85NM
and ordered a new sprocet chainset.Yesterday i changed the sprockets and chain and the old one had come loose again and bent the lockwasher open and losened the nut.I put a new lockervasher and retorqed to 90Nm.one thing i notised was that the new sprocket also had a loose fit on the splines exatly as the old (also jt sprocket.)The splines on shaft look good.
after a ride the bad engine noises came back ands seems to get worse when engine gets hot.I took the bike to the yamaha dealer and skilled a meckanic
tested the bike for a little ride.I told him i tought mayby it was the bearing sitting behind the sprocket ,but he sayd that he think its the camcaintensioner or worn out camchain. but i had stretched camchain before on my fj600 and it sounded more like a constant rattling.I dont like riding with this thinking that bad things can happend like a blocked rearwheel .... id had blocked rear wheel before but then it was a bad 2 gear on a fj1100.
so what do you think is this a total rebuild?
i was thinking og first take the camchaintensioner and loosen the bolts a cople of turns to see if it clicks out one click and then retighten the bolts .
if i find the camchain is stretched im going to try to change it by cutting it and splice in a new one is that doable on the fj? :wacko2:


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Urban_Legend on May 30, 2018, 05:30:56 PM
These bikes are known to have a rattle when taking off from a stop and at low revs. this is usually caused by the starter chain, not the cam chain. It is very common and of no immediate concern.

Not sure of the fix (other than splitting the cases and installing a new one) and most of the bikes i know that have this issue (and that most of them) have been this way for years.

Mark


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 30, 2018, 08:11:06 PM
Spot on Mark! :good:


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Urban_Legend on May 30, 2018, 09:17:57 PM
Here is a phota of the inside of my motor (89 Fj1200) looking from the bottom with the two chains ( starter and Cam) labelled and this bit I just fixed. Hope it helps you. This motor has about 30k km ( 18k miles) the starter chain was a loose fit.

Mark


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on May 31, 2018, 12:47:28 AM
thanks for reply .I forgot to mention that i know about the starterchain rattle and have had that to it sounds more like a chain jumping over sprockets just as i takeoff in first .When i think about it i havent had that starterchain noise lately so mayby the starterchain noise has turned into the sound im hearing now.The starterchain is for sure stretched the bike has run 120 000 kilometers its a 86 fj1200.What worries me is that i can feel somtings not right ive ridden fj for about 15 years and usally i igjore all the noises from the engine.I feel like a roughness in the transmission.That and that my front sprocket nut is starting  coming loose i dont like. When i changed the sprocket i tryed to see if there was any play in the outputshaft but it felt totally stable and also very
easy to turn with fingers.The output shaft for the gearselector had play in it but no leaks around the seals for outputshaft or gearselector shaft


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: oldktmdude on May 31, 2018, 05:41:01 PM
   If you are concerned enough, drop the oil out of it and see how it looks. Any excessive metal flakes or "chunks" will confirm that you have a problem.
If you don't find anything out of the ordinary, keep riding and push the ear plugs in deeper.   :good2:
Regards, Pete.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: ribbert on June 01, 2018, 09:12:02 AM
Noises can travel, they can be amplified and the pitch distorted (and change over the net). I listened to that clip about a dozen times and have no suggestion other than to say it has some resonance, depth and oiliness about it, something I would normally associate with being in, or on, the gearbox.
A good tool for finding noises is your fingers, as you are spinning it, touch the areas around where you think the sound is coming from and see if you can feel anything consistant with the noise. Even better, put a large screw driver on the area with your ear pressed onto the handle and move it around to different locations. I still find that works better than my automotive stethoscopes.
Have you checked the carrier bearing in the rear sprocket? Not that it particularly sounds like it, but just eliminating possible causes, they seem to behave differently to wheel bearings when shot.

Forget about the cam chain, the motor isn't running in the video.

Back in the 70's I had a bloke bring me a yank tank with a massive V8, he had just had a top to bottom overhaul, crankshaft grind, re-bore, new pistons, heads etc. after it developed a knock. He had opted for a full rebuild because reliability was paramount, he towed horses all over the country with it.
The trouble was, it still had exactly the same knock after the rebuild! After a few minutes of looking, listening and feeling I pulled the PCV valve out of the rocker cover, the surprisingly deep knock suddenly became a light click, click, click.... in my hand. I pushed it back in and the clicking turned to knocking again. A broken spring in the PCV valve, at the time a new valve cost about $2. I can still remember the look on his face, it was near distorted with rage.

Noel


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: red on June 01, 2018, 10:41:01 AM
   If you are concerned enough, drop the oil out of it and see how it looks. Any excessive metal flakes or "chunks" will confirm that you have a problem. Regards, Pete.
Old Rider,

On the same idea, you can get a magnetic oil drain plug, and/or a ring magnet for the oil filter,  from RPM.  Magnets are better than any oil filter; they can catch and hold atoms of iron or steel.  Lacking either one, you can attach one or more strong magnet(s) along the bottom side of the oil filter; just keep the magnet(s) in place until the oil filter has been removed from the engine.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on June 05, 2018, 03:27:55 AM
Thanks for your input guys here is an uppdate.
Last sunday i desided too open the valvecover and check the cam chain and see if it was lose and
also pull out the carbs and check the cam tensioner.Alos desided i should fix the frontsprocket
nut with locktite threadlock.I use to stand outside on a deserted parkinglot when i work on the
bike and i wasent too keen on doing this in the heat as i have heartproblems i had 3 heartattacs 
before and i get really exhausted working on the bike for long times in heat and its been
extremely hot weather here in Norway this month tempratures raging between 26-32 degree celsius
hottest may meausered in over 100 years! .The longtime forecast sayd that the hot weather will continue so
my impatiense of getting this done got me =)
anyway what i found was at first with the engine on TDC the timingchain seemed to be fine and not
lose but a closer look from side the chain was riding high on the camsprockets as it dont fit down
on the sprocet thoths.The sprocket theets seems not worn no sign of the theeths getting pointed 
the timingmarks was a little out did not center in the holes in the camchaft caps.(mayby that is
why i had a little backfiring lately)
Then when i put a screwdriver on top of chain betveen the sprocets and pushed down it got very
loose.like 3-4 cm hanging down.
I then pulled the carbs to get to the camchain tensioner.i losened the 2 tensioner allenkey bolts
a little to see if i could get the tensioner spring to "click out" i did not hear any click so i
screwed the allenkey bolts a little bit further out mayby 3-4 millimeters.Then i felt something
happened and felt the resistanse from the spring inside tensioner pushing the tensioner outwards.i
could push the tensioner into the engine by hand so i desided the i did not need to take the
tensioner completely out to check it,because i was afraid that the chain might get so lose the chain
would jump over a thooth on the cranksprocket.I then screwed the allenkey screws back in and
thightened them to tourqe specs.
Then when checking the chainslack it seemed thight (too thight?)the timingmarks had now got centered in the camchaft capholes also the lines in marks on the sprokets aligned with the top surface of sylinderblock i took off the camchain guidance
between the sprocets to better see how thight the cain had got. when i grabbed the chain with my
fingers i could move it just 5-7 millimeters up and down in the middle between the sprockets.Is
that way to thight?? also i notised that the chain still dident seem to fit the theeth on the
sprockets like riding high on the sprockets. i know this is a sign of a  stretched chain on a
rearwheel drivechain but not sure how it is on a timingchain. I have not any good picktures from a
fj engine to compare with.so if you have one please post it.Anyway i turned egine a couple of
turns on the crank and it moved quite easy not too hard to turn it around.and no bad sounds.
I then decided to just put the the valvecover back on and carbs back in and start the engine and
listen to it.When finished i fired her up and i could right away hear a different sound from
engine much quieter and almost like a sewingmachine.I rode her a little and the bad tick/scraping
sound was totally gone i tryed to see if i could make the sound come back by driving slow in first
and second gear slipping with the clutch then roll on /off with the trhottle and take off fast
riding over bumps ets ets also tryed to rev the egine up in a little higher speeds (as i heard
that if the camchain is too tight the engine will not rev up easy) and the throttleresponse seems
much quicker now there is no lag/hesitatin when turning on the throttle and also i got better
acceleration and on top of that no backfiring!!.The bad sound is totaly gone(crossing fingers!) and the engine sonuds
like new no bad noises! but there is a but a very BIG but...When i drive and listening to engine i
can hear that summing sewingmachine noise and it worries me that its mayby the sound of a too
thight camchain that will snap....

So here is my questions :
is it normal that the chain seems to be riding high on the camsprockets ? does anyone have a

picture from the sidewiev of the camchain laying down on the sprockets?

How tight is too tight ?i can mowe the chain about 5-7 millimeters up/down and it feels thight

and last if my chain is stretched too much im planning to change it by rivet it onto a new chain

and turn the crank to it gets around and then mount a masterlink is that possible?

anyone had a too tight camchain snapped?


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: fjbiker84 on June 05, 2018, 07:48:18 AM
This may show the cam chain as it rides over the sprockets in a way that will help you.  Shortly after this photo was taken I decided to replace the cam chain tensioner with a new RPM tensioner.  In my case the PO had installed a manually adjustable tensioner and I was concerned that the tension wasn't correct.   


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: red on June 05, 2018, 08:37:16 AM
Old Rider,

If your Cam Chain was loose until you started fiddlin' with things there, you DEFINITELY need a new Cam Chain Tensioner.  That old one is binding or something, and if it fails, you can destroy the whole engine in a heartbeat.  I would strongly advise NOT running or riding the bike, until you get the new CCT in the engine.

There are right and wrong ways to do that CCT change, so it will be worth searching here for a tech post about how to.  This is not a job for wingin' it.

You will not need to be concerned about Cam Chain tension with a new CCT; the tension will be correct.

For the kilometers traveled, I would doubt that your Cam Chain has stretched significantly.  These are long-winded engines, and yours is still fairly young (at the odometer), as FJs go.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on June 05, 2018, 09:17:42 AM
Fjbiker84 Thanks for posting the picture .Idiot as i was i forgot to take some pictures of mine to compare but as i remember it looks like my camchain is riding a little higher on the sprockets than on the picture.before i losened the cct i the chain looked like on the picture but when pressed on the top i could press down  the chain about 3- 4 centimeters and after i repositioned the tensioner the slack is only 5-7 millimeters.
red : you are right about the tensioner might have been binding i first planned to take it completely out and se if i could sevice it but when i started screwing the 2 allenkey bolts out a little at time on each side i suddenly felt that it extracted the rod innside.The spring innside started to work again.at that moment the cct was about 3-4 millimeters out from engine and i could easy push it towards the engine with my hand.I then desided to just screw it back in and did not use any force to bolt it back. But when feeling on the chain at the middle of the camsprockets it felt tight i can move it about 5-7 millimeters up and down.dont know if that is too tight.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: RPM - Robert on June 05, 2018, 09:33:34 AM
Did you remove the spring assembly before removing the allen screws holding the tensioner in? If not you need to remove the springs and the entire tensioner and reset the tensioner all the way in. (Or replace with a new one) After resetting the tensioner do not put the spring back in it until you have it bolted back up to the motor. If you leave the spring in and unbolt the tensioner it will automatically extend which can cause too much tension on the cam chain. You should also replace the tensioner gasket while it is off. No need to take everything back apart for an oil leak that could have easily been prevented.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on June 05, 2018, 10:03:44 AM
Hi RPM Robert no i did not unbolt the springcapbolt at the backside because it was very tight not possible to losen without destroying something was a little afraid i might snap the bolts holding the cct inplace. so i screwed the hole tensionerassembly out mayby 3 millimeters and then i felt the spring activated .
I had some gasket material sheet with me planning to make a new gasket but i could not see any rip in the old one so i tok the chance it was okay .I have not had any leaks yet i rode the bike alot yesterday.The reason i did not remove the tensioner completly is that i was thinking that the chain was so stretched that when i remove the cct form engine the chain would jump over a thooth on the cranksprocket.The question now is is my chain too tight or is it also stretched .Im going to replace the atleast the cct an also the chain i think just wondering if i can manage to change it without splitting the engine.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: RPM - Robert on June 05, 2018, 10:17:16 AM
If you did not remove the center bolt and you heard the click, you have now hyper-extended the tensioner. You need to loosen the center bolt and then reset the tensioner. They are tight, but have never had an issue breaking the mounting bolts to remove it. If needed you can use an pneumatic impact gun to break it free.

Once you have the tensioner removed, you need to fully compress the plunger and the re-install. The install the spring and center bolt to ensure the tension is correct.

The way it is now is going to cause excessive stretch to the chain and cause the rubber chain guide to wear through the rubber at an accelerated rate.

No the timing chain can not be replaced with out splitting the case with the Yamaha timing chain. At one point I believe someone offered a split timing chain but we have never used one on the FJ.

When we build motors, it is better for us to take it apart and inspect everything than try and do a cheaper job and possibly cost more later on items that could have been easily checked and replaced while doing the work the first time.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on June 12, 2018, 01:54:31 PM
after riding with what i suspect beeing a to tight timingchan feeling uncomfortable it may snap i ordered a new D.I.D  timing chain.Today i started the work
I have measured the old chain by tying a thin line (flyfishing backing) around the chain while rotating the engine .Whayt i found was that the old chain is
25 millimeters longer that the new !.the timingchain adjuster is fully expanded. 25 millimeters still seems very long so i think the new chain is to short
any one measured timingchain stretch after replacing it?
The chain is did SCA 0412A SV  has anyone replaced chain and used that chain?


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: aj52 on June 12, 2018, 02:52:11 PM
after riding with what i suspect beeing a to tight timingchan feeling uncomfortable it may snap i ordered a new D.I.D  timing chain.Today i started the work
I have measured the old chain by tying a thin line (flyfishing backing) around the chain while rotating the engine .Whayt i found was that the old chain is
25 millimeters longer that the new !.the timingchain adjuster is fully expanded. 25 millimeters still seems very long so i think the new chain is to short
any one measured timingchain stretch after replacing it?
The chain is did SCA 0412A SV  has anyone replaced chain and used that chain?


That number shows up as an Suzuki timing chain.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: oldktmdude on June 12, 2018, 03:47:02 PM
   How many links is it? The correct number is 156. That amount of stretch is not unusual, I replaced one recently that was at least that much longer than a new one.
   Regards, Pete.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: RPM - Robert on June 12, 2018, 04:00:18 PM
See reply #19. http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16008.msg164116#msg164116 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16008.msg164116#msg164116)  I do not recall what the measurement was as it has been a few years but with over 100,000 miles. 25 mm (almost 1 inch) of stretch, seems like a lot.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: ribbert on June 13, 2018, 08:53:31 AM
People fit endless cam chains in FJ's because the engine is usually pulled down for other work anyway and it's no more trouble. Yamaha supply them that way because that's how they fit them during production. I guess it's happened but I've never heard of an FJ being stripped for a cam chain replacement only. (mine currently has 260,000km on the original)

I would not split an engine just to replace the cam chain, there is nothing wrong with split chains. Engine companies often use parts during manufacture that are economical during production but impractical to replace in a fully assembled engine, hence split chains. Many bikes also leave the factory with an endless drive chain for the same reason.

I'm not endorsing your decision to replace the chain by making these comments, just saying you don't need to pull it down if you want to replace it.

I have fitted many split cam chains and just last year one of our members here did the same. While in the finishing stages of a very comprehensive engine build he discovered the chain that had been supplied (and was now installed) was the wrong length.

Whichever way you do it, don't worry if the chain drops into the crankcase, contrary to the advice in the manual.

IMO

Noel


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: racerrad8 on June 13, 2018, 09:12:51 AM
The timing chain is not usually the source of the noise as the tensioner keeps the chain taught.

The noise is usually the starter chain slapping around in there since it has no tensioners.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on June 14, 2018, 01:36:24 AM
Thanks riders for helpful tips :good2:.But stubborn and often silly as i am i wanted to do this job my way and do a experiment :diablo:
so here is a little uppdate:
Yesterday i started the job replacing my cam chain.I wanted to see if i could do it by splitting
the old chain temporary rivet the new on and rotating the engine  without even removing the
camchafts.I was thinking that it would be faster than removing the camchafts and the possibility
that i might snap a capbolt or muchroom some capbolt threads.look at it as a experiment  :morning2:
I was wondering how i could make it and came up with the idea using zipties to keep the chain down
on the sprocket thoots.In teory it should work ,but i reality it was quite a fiddely job. :nea:
so first i started at the inntake sprocket upper right zipping the oldchain and split it then i
connected the new cain to the old and started the process rotating the engine a little and
adding more zipties and remowing zipties as i was rotating  .I found out that this was a very slow process and also
difficult as the chain was thight and easyly can slip a thooth.Everything was going sort of nice (and slow)
until i almost had the hole chain running thru the engine and about 10 centimeters left, then i
was a little out of focus and the chain slipped a thooth. :dash1:I could not get it back where it shold
have been so i just kept turning the engine carefully and watchin the valves hoping nothing was
colliding with the pistons.at the end i had the hole chain thru ,but then i could not put in the
masterlink in because of the chain had slipped a thooth.
so far so good but then i did a really silly thing  :dash1: i removed the camchain tensioner thinking that if i
could get   slack on the chain i could get it one thooth back so i
could fit the masterlink.it worked and then i mounted and riveted the masterlink with my supersheep
super low quality ebay chain rivet tool.
But then i accedently rotated the engine with my foot clockwise
because i was stumbling and the wrench still sitting on the crank  :ireful: .i was working in my
garage (wich is  very narrow dark and with deep gravel og ground)
.i then knew i for sure it was out of timing
then i tryed to rotate it back and realize that the chain was slipping on the cranksprocket bacause it was
so loose after remowing the cct.so then i definitly knew i was fuc... and out of timing :gamer:
that is what i managed to do last evening .Im waiting to recieve the new camchaintenioner from the
dealer today.Now im just hoping that i dont do anything wrong when trying to get the timing right
again.i know i mayby can fu...up by not having the engine at real TDC i mean at the compression
stroke any tip about that would be very nice!.I know that i can feel when the compression stroke
is by holding my finger innside the plughole well not innside but at top of it :rofl: im planning to
try to take the chain of the exhaust sprocket and rotate the camchaft a little without bending a
valve.any suggestions wold be helpful.
I took some pictures how my expremential ziptie method works il post later.I dont recomend the
metod and nex time i remove the camchafts instead.=)



Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: ribbert on June 14, 2018, 08:56:51 AM

Thanks riders for helpful tips :good2:.But stubborn and often silly as i am i wanted to do this job my way and do a experiment :diablo:


Why not just remove the tensioner, cut the old chain off, feed the new one through, join it, time it, job done.

Old Rider, I don't know if you are winding us up or not, but right from the onset you have wanted this to be the cam chain, despite no supporting evidence to that effect and you appear to have taken not one skerrick of notice of the opinions you asked for.

You have a manual, I'm sure it describes the cam timing procedure in detail.

Lots of folks here only too happy to advise, but if all you want to do is experiment with your own motor, fine, but if you want it fixed and want help in doing so, heed the advice offered.

Noel





Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on June 14, 2018, 02:00:26 PM
First i want to clarify that the noise i got from engine was indeed the cam chain beeing very slack/stetched and when rolling on and off throttle i slow speed
it did make a strange noise i also had a backfire.
I know for sure it was the cam chain or infact the tensioner binding up and the spring not working. I know it because when i first opened the engine the 3th of june i could se the chain had a big slack i could push it down 4 centimeters between the camsprockets. When i temporary fixed it by losening the cct a little an tapping it i heard and felt the spring innside activated and the chain was thight again.
The chain was then stretched so it dident engage on the theeth on the camsprockets like riding on top of the sprockets even if it was very tight.
afterwards i rode the bike for some days and the bad sound from egine was completely gone. so yes it was the cam chain that made the noise.
Firstly i tought the noise was comming from the countershaft outer bearing because i also had a lose front sprocket.i fixed that with a new chain and sprocket set  ,but the nois was still there.I then tok the bike to the yamaha dealer 10 minutes ride from where i live and spoke with the the chief at the shop who has ages of experiens wrenching on yamaha bikes.He sat on the bike looking like a doctor listened to the engine and then tok it for a ride without a helmet :shok:.when he came back he listened a little more and then he sayd: You can forget the contershaftbearing it is not that it is your camchain tensioner.replace that and se what happens.
At first i was thinking he was wrong and that a cam chain rattle sounds more consistent and different, but as i wrote earlier he was infact right.
I have changed te cam chain now because i had a feeling it was too thight and might snap after working on the bike the 3th of june.
about the procedure of it was possible to change it with splitting it and run it thru i got no answer only that i had to tear down hole engine.At the moment
it is the middle of ridingseason here in Norway and i was planning on a 1700 kilometer trip op north so that was not an option right now but in the winter i might tear and rebuild the engine.One reason why i did it with zipties was i tought it was faster and also dident risk snapping a capbolt or damage any treads .The ziptie method i used works but it is probably faster taking the camchafts off so no i know that.
i have just now been out in the garage and reset the timing and everything seems fine just waiting for the new cct from the dealer hopfully it comes tomorrow.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on June 14, 2018, 02:31:03 PM
a little uppdate i now measured the old chain and when laying it on the floor beside the flyfishing backingline i measured it when it was innside  the engine it is almost same lenght only about 2 millimeter shorter than the line so that means that the old chain is infact 23millimeters stretched!!.also when holding it with my hands
i can feel a stretcing motion when pulling at the ends :shok: another thing, the new chain lays perfect on the camsprockets opposite to the old who was riding high on sprockets.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: FJmonkey on June 14, 2018, 02:36:47 PM
You mean like elastic?   :scratch_one-s_head:


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: RPM - Robert on June 14, 2018, 02:37:20 PM
You should confirm what cam chain tensioner number he ordered. If he ordered the newer 4kg number you will need to replace the tensioner bolt as well as the old bolts are too short and you will struggle to get it started in the deeper threads of the new tensioner. If he ordered the 99999 part number one you will be ok. 4KG Tensioner (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=4KG-12210-00) was used on the 1995 and later models.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on June 14, 2018, 03:15:38 PM
Fjmonkey yes  a little like a rubber band :mocking:

Robert thanks for telling me that i will fore sure check that.One thing i found was the tensionerbolts sitting in now is different lenghts but else looking the same i dont know if thats normal one is about 5millimeters longer also the previus owner has tightened the bolts to much and done some damage to the threads the first couple of turns. i have a thredset tool and thinking of refreshing the threads or use some blue threadlock on them.
On the old tenioner the capbolt was thightened so hard i had to place it in a wice and use full force to get it lose the torque should be 6Nm !  im not going to reuse that but wanted to take a look at the springs.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: RPM - Robert on June 14, 2018, 03:20:38 PM
I am talking about the Center Bolt (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=engine%3A4KG-12222) The allen head bolts don't really matter as long as they are not too long as to bottom out and not seal and not too short so they pull the threads when tightened. Could be a language barrier but it sounds like you are talking about the two that hold the tensioner to the barrel assembly.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on June 14, 2018, 04:05:55 PM
okay i see thanks for informing me i will check that when i hopfully get it tomorow .When i order it i gave them the number from the 86 parts catalogue so hoping i get what i need.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on June 28, 2018, 01:27:42 AM
Hello fj warriors here is a late uppdate on my camchain ziptie replacement method.
My bike has been stranded 3weeks in the garage because the yamaha dealer messed up when ordering the camchain tensioner so after 2weeks waiting they had to order it a second time.
yesterday it finally arrived and i could start to do some wrenching. I recieved the 4K cct partnumber but also recieved the long capbolt.Tok a pick comparing the old cct spring with the new one.
After getting everything toghether and filled carbs with fuel thru a syringe it was time to se if she fired up.Started at second attempt and the got some nasty backfiring so shut her off.
I was thinking oh nooo... but then i realize that the vacum hose was disconnected and hoping that was the reason and not some timing issue.Then i mounted the gastank and vacumhose and fired again and thank god the misfire was gone.Tok a ride aferwords and so far everything seems fine and no strange noise from engine anymore.I have some concern though and that is 1 when i installed the cct
and used a 22mm wrench on the inntake cam rotating a little backwards i could not hear any cliks from tensioner and the chain feels a little lose.I i rotate engine at crank the cain can be moved about 10 millimeters up and down but if i use big force the chain gets quite sloppy between sprocets.i guess its normal.I have tried to rotate the inntake backwards but tenioner does not click out so i guess it has the right tension.
2 the D.I.D camchain seems a little less robust than the genuine chain i measured all parts and its the same meausrement exept the hight of the chain wich is 1 millimeter smaller the pins also is 0.010 mm smaller in diameter.
Summary is that the Timing chain can be replaced this way without remwoving the camshafts but it takes time probably faster to remove cams.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on June 28, 2018, 05:50:19 AM
added some pics but dont think they sow up


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: oldktmdude on June 28, 2018, 06:05:09 AM
   I don't understand why you just didn't remove the cams. Nothing hard or complicated about it and would also be much quicker than the way you did it.
 


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: RPM - Robert on June 28, 2018, 09:35:27 AM
DO NOT turn the camshafts at the hex towards the center of the motor. This will slack the chain and can cause it to jump a tooth. (we see this with the race car guys more than anything, as the timing plate/ rotor assembly is more difficult to access) If you are using the 22mm hex on the camshaft you always turn towards the back of the bike on the intake side to rotate and towards the front of the bike on the exhaust side (difficult to do in the bike with the frame in the way) to rotate the opposite direction.

If you put the cam chain tensioner in fully compressed, with the ratchet mechanism facing downwards, and bolted it up with the two allen head bolts; then installed the springs and center bolt. The adjuster self adjusted to the proper tension. Leave it alone and ride it.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on June 28, 2018, 03:57:03 PM
   I don't understand why you just didn't remove the cams. Nothing hard or complicated about it and would also be much quicker than the way you did it.
 
you probably right but iwas thinking it was a fast and easy way without removing the cams .In reality it was a bit slower than i tought .If i had done it with  less tension on the chain ( the chain was very tight)  i think i could do it  faster .Mayby same time as remowing and replacing the cams.
Also litte worried that i might snap a capbolt or strip threads in the old aluminium if i removed the cams.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on June 28, 2018, 04:06:00 PM
DO NOT turn the camshafts at the hex towards the center of the motor. This will slack the chain and can cause it to jump a tooth. (we see this with the race car guys more than anything, as the timing plate/ rotor assembly is more difficult to access) If you are using the 22mm hex on the camshaft you always turn towards the back of the bike on the intake side to rotate and towards the front of the bike on the exhaust side (difficult to do in the bike with the frame in the way) to rotate the opposite direction.

If you put the cam chain tensioner in fully compressed, with the ratchet mechanism facing downwards, and bolted it up with the two allen head bolts; then installed the springs and center bolt. The adjuster self adjusted to the proper tension. Leave it alone and ride it.

i DID NOT have a relationship with that woman... :yes: just kidding  i did not rotate the inntake cam towards the front of bike i only used the wrench at same time as the wrench on the crankcase when rotating.I did try to rotate it bacwards a little bit after all was installed to try to get the tensioner click out .I did what you sayd when it comes to the tensioner install.Also thanks for telling me about the 4k parnumber so i got the long capbolt to . :good:


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on June 28, 2018, 04:17:49 PM
One more thing i probably could have done this superfast by just split the old chain tied it to the new get it off crank sprocet running the new chain thru then engaging it to the crank sprocket again with a long stick and then lay it on to the camsprockets and rivet it with the masterlink.
it had to be done with the tensioner out it seems there is enough space around the sprockets to do that.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Old Rider on July 17, 2018, 01:48:54 PM
So the sound is back!!!! :dash2:  :flag_of_truce: after doing alot of riding i got the noise back.I tought i had fixed it because the noise only show up after about 40 minutes og riding .The days after i had replaced the camchain and tensioner i did not ride long enough time to the bad noise to show up. Today i did some testing on a deserted place .I accelerated hard and it runs fast and easy up to top speed but it is very bad noises coming from engine and very heavy vibrations. After my testruns the noises is even worse. I was thinking of doing a ovehaul this vinter but now i got a low milage engine from a 3cw that i can buy. Just trying to find out if it bolts right in the frame? wasent there a different rubber enginemount on the 3cw compared to the 1TX ?


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: arendal on August 06, 2018, 10:01:44 AM
I also has some ratling from left side of the engine. But it almost disapear with clutch pulled. First i thord it could be the clutch, but then i noticed it came from the other side. Could it just be the starter chain?


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on August 06, 2018, 10:54:06 AM
Did '86 have the dual wall header pipes?


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: RPM - Robert on August 06, 2018, 11:15:00 AM
Did '86 have the dual wall header pipes?

I do not believe so. Both the 86's we have here had single wall. I believe that was an 1100 thing.


Title: Re: Strange noise engine or transmission
Post by: Pat Conlon on August 06, 2018, 11:34:10 AM
Did '86 have the dual wall header pipes?

I do not believe so. Both the 86's we have here had single wall. I believe that was an 1100 thing.

Correct^^