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General Category => FJ Project Writeups => Topic started by: Old Rider on September 18, 2018, 05:53:31 AM



Title: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 18, 2018, 05:53:31 AM
After trying to stop the bad noise Skveeking metallick noise and high metallick bangs coming from engine i decided to split the cases .So far i have tryed replacing the cam chain and chaintensioner replaced complete clutch with basket and all bearings.Last thing i did some days ago i replaced the rubberdampers in the rearwheel hub as they were worn out and i had a 6mm back and forth slack in the rear sprocket hub carrier.I was thinking that replacing the dampers would ease the shock on transmission and drivetrain and hopefully make the bad noise go away.That did not help at all the noise is even worse 
So yesterday i tok a compression test on hot engine, the readings look god the measurements was:

Syl 1  11.0 BAR 159 PSI
Syl 2  11.4 BAR 166.7 PSI
Syl 3  11.4 BAR 166.7 PSI
Syl 4  10.9 BAR 158.09 PSI
First i got very low readings like 7,5bar but then i forgot that you must have the throttle wide open.
Also forgot to take another test with a teespoon oil in the cylinders.I already had drained out the engine oil when i
remembered.I not sure if the oil test is needed when the results of the dry test is good?

So now i have the engine out i removed the generator startermotor and clutch with basket before i removed the engine.
It was alot heavier than i tought and i can barly lift it 10 centimeters of the ground.The plan now is to split it in my little garage not ideal because it is dark tight and about 2-3inches of gravel on floor.

I have read the replace second gear guide in the trasmission thread,but there is something i dont understand.
That is this:
"Put the gear shift drum and forks back together, and put the drive shaft back in the UPPER CRANKCASE. I then experimented with putting the lower crankcase back on top of the upper crankcase without any Threebond applied (a "dry" run), to make sure I could get the shift forks aligned with the gears properly with a minimum of fuss"

What i was planning to do was splitting the cases and then on reasemble putting shiftdrum shiftforks and outputshaft and mainshaft  (Everything) into the Lower case and then flip it over and lay it down ontop of the tophalf case.
Is that not possible?   i mean will the gears fall out when the case is held oppside down ? If so can i hold it in place with a temporary wire from the opening where the sump fitted?
in the description from the secondgear replacement guide it say put the driveshaft into upper case and then align the shiftforks with the gears in the lower case.Isthat the only way to do it?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Urban_Legend on September 18, 2018, 04:18:08 PM
Hi

I have had to split the cases on my 1200 motor, because of a starter clutch issue. I am trying to remember how I put the cases back together. From memory I had the gear clusters in the lower case. The important this to remember is there there is a locating pin on the end bearings of each gear cluster. Make sure they are in position before you put the cases back together. If the cases don't go together neatly, or ther is a slight gap, DO NOT do up the case bolts. It means one of these pins is not lined up.

Mark

Addit: If you can get it put onto a workbench or  something, it will make the job of assemble so much easier. Remember you have to flip the motor a few times to re assemble. If you can get someone to give you a lift maybe.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Urban_Legend on September 18, 2018, 04:34:14 PM
Here are some photos of the damage that a miss aligned locating pin can do (This is from my old motor that I replaced). And a simple trick to remember which bolt goes where. All the bolts are numbered on the crank case. I had two pieces of carb board , and numbered then in roughly the same locations of there the bolts were in the case. made it easy for reassembly.

Mark


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on September 18, 2018, 06:53:57 PM
Here is a similar topic from last week were I posted this below.

Randy - RPM

A couple of things.

Make sure the forks are installed correctly, you can get the centre on installed backwards.

Make sure the 1st gear on the shaft I sent is installed correctly, it to can easily be installed backwards.

I put the transmission in the bottom half of the case. That way you can index the dowels on the bearings into the holes in the bottom case. This will also allow you to engage the shift forks and ensure it shifts properly before installing.

Pull the crank seals now. The oe seals had a flange to prevent them from falling out while doing down the assembly line. They are easy to get out now, much more difficult when the halves are back together.

When installing the bolts, put some clean motor oil on the threads and under the head so they torque smoothly.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 19, 2018, 12:30:56 AM
Hi

I have had to split the cases on my 1200 motor, because of a starter clutch issue. I am trying to remember how I put the cases back together. From memory I had the gear clusters in the lower case. The important this to remember is there there is a locating pin on the end bearings of each gear cluster. Make sure they are in position before you put the cases back together. If the cases don't go together neatly, or ther is a slight gap, DO NOT do up the case bolts. It means one of these pins is not lined up.

Mark

Addit: If you can get it put onto a workbench or  something, it will make the job of assemble so much easier. Remember you have to flip the motor a few times to re assemble. If you can get someone to give you a lift maybe.

Hi mark thanks for the helpful information i havent splitted the cases yet and trying to get as much information i can before i start.Putting the bolts into 2 carboards is a great idea! can you please send me the cardboards so i dont have too make my own ?  :biggrin: did you have trouble getting the cases too realese ? i read another tread here that it can be difficult.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 19, 2018, 12:48:46 AM
Here is a similar topic from last week were I posted this below.

Randy - RPM

A couple of things.

Make sure the forks are installed correctly, you can get the centre on installed backwards.

Make sure the 1st gear on the shaft I sent is installed correctly, it to can easily be installed backwards.

I put the transmission in the bottom half of the case. That way you can index the dowels on the bearings into the holes in the bottom case. This will also allow you to engage the shift forks and ensure it shifts properly before installing.

Pull the crank seals now. The oe seals had a flange to prevent them from falling out while doing down the assembly line. They are easy to get out now, much more difficult when the halves are back together.

When installing the bolts, put some clean motor oil on the threads and under the head so they torque smoothly.

Randy - RPM

Hi randy i read that tread very helpful also have read another post from you about the first gear that the groved ring outside the gear have to face away from centre of engine.
About the cranseals.. do they have to replaced ? are the new  seals without the flange and if do i have to use high temp silicone like yamabond or threebond on them when reasemble?
Is there a way to identify the shiftforks if they are before or after 1988 ? i bought a used transmision from ebay that supposed to come from a 1992 or 1994 fj1200 ABS.i suspect that transmission is not so good mayby worn.The previus owner of my bike had done some transmission work i dont know what.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Urban_Legend on September 19, 2018, 04:31:04 AM
Hi. If everything has been removed or undone then the cases should nearly fall apart. Anything more that a light tap with a rubber mallet, then you have missed something.
The sequence for splitting the cases. It will require flipping the motor a few times
1. Remove the clutch assembly
2. Remove the oil pump (drive cog removed first)
3. Flip motor, remove the sump and oil pick ups.
Now you have a flat base
4. Flip again. There is a number next to each bolt. Remove starting at 27(i think) and work down through the numbers, placing them in the cardboard as you go.
When the top is done, last flip and do the ones on the bottom. Now with a gentle tap the cases should come apart.
Mark


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Urban_Legend on September 19, 2018, 04:10:57 PM
Oops i missed a step between 2 and 3. we will call it 2.5 - There is a bearing keeper that crosses the 2 halves of the case, around the clutch sharft. You will need torq keys for this one.

Mark


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 19, 2018, 06:09:35 PM
Mark, thank you, this is some good stuff...PM sent.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 20, 2018, 12:11:39 AM
Oops i missed a step between 2 and 3. we will call it 2.5 - There is a bearing keeper that crosses the 2 halves of the case, around the clutch sharft. You will need torq keys for this one.

Mark

Thanks Mark i have made the cardboards ready and now I'm going down to may garage to start the work.I'm still a little confused when i look in the workshop manual which i know have some mistakes when it comes to torque specs.I know about the drainplug and the clutchcover bolts are listed wrong but yesterday i found something confusing.It is the torque of the crankcase bolts, first it says 12 NM on some of the bolts but another place in the manual it says 10 NM on the same bolts.
My plan at first on reassemble was to put the transmission with the shiftforks into lower half then flip it over and put it onto the upperhalf ,but i think the transmission then will fall out .
I was planning  to not remove the head and cylinders from upper half but as it seems now i can not do the job the way i wanted because the transmission will fall out when lower case held upsidedown.(if not the bearingretainer can be partly mounted to keep it in place ? )
if i have to put the upperhalf with the head and cylinders mounted down onto lower half it is going to be to heavy to do it with control so i think i will take off the head and cylinders.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Urban_Legend on September 20, 2018, 12:29:34 AM
I had the advantage of two people when i did mine. You are right about the gears falling out if you try to flip the lower case on the the upper. It is a heavy lump of a motor.
The gear clusters actually have to be in the lower half of the case for the shift forks. It is impossible to line the shift forks properly if you have the clusters in the top case.
Which book are you using for the torque specs? I used the Haynes version. Also what motor are you tinkering with. It does make a difference. Like with the bolts. the 1100 has a bolt 24 and the 1200 does not (but the number is still on the case for it.) The bolts have a relatively low torque rating as you are screwing them into alloy. Also remember some not all of the bolts are the same thickness. lower torques for the skinny ones.

Is there someone you can rope into giving you a hand with the heavy lifting? wife/girlfriend/partner, good friend, neighbour, arsehole down the road.....anyone?
Where are you located in the world?

Mark


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Urban_Legend on September 20, 2018, 01:50:58 AM
Torque specs out of the Haynes bible. On the M6 bolts (skinny ones) it is 10nm on yours up to 1990 and 12nm on 91 on.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 20, 2018, 08:42:36 AM
I had the advantage of two people when i did mine. You are right about the gears falling out if you try to flip the lower case on the the upper. It is a heavy lump of a motor.
The gear clusters actually have to be in the lower half of the case for the shift forks. It is impossible to line the shift forks properly if you have the clusters in the top case.
Which book are you using for the torque specs? I used the Haynes version. Also what motor are you tinkering with. It does make a difference. Like with the bolts. the 1100 has a bolt 24 and the 1200 does not (but the number is still on the case for it.) The bolts have a relatively low torque rating as you are screwing them into alloy. Also remember some not all of the bolts are the same thickness. lower torques for the skinny ones.

Is there someone you can rope into giving you a hand with the heavy lifting? wife/girlfriend/partner, good friend, neighbour, arsehole down the road.....anyone?
Where are you located in the world?

Mark


Hi mark Very nice of you helping. Im using the yamaha fj1100 L fj1100 LC GYSM service manual its from 1984. I will buy the Haynes manual i used haynes manuals for  other bikes and cars  i worked on and i think its a great manual not without faults but okay .Thanks for clearifying on the torque specs.My engine is a 1TX from 86.
Today the work on the engine stopped quite fast because after removed the camchafts starting to losen up the 12 cylinderheadnuts one of them was stuck did not want to use to much force and mayby break off the stud as i could feel it twisting.I dont have a torch burner right now so i could not heat it.Instead i made a hole in the top of the nut it is really soft and filled with wd-40 will let it work some hours and try then.I  hope the cylinders will come off easy but i see some of the studs are rusty and the plastic sleave on them is rippled.
I will also replace the starterchain while im there so i guess i will order stuff from Randy RPM im really satisfied with the service they give.I live in Norway right on the other side of eart from you.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Urban_Legend on September 20, 2018, 04:20:03 PM
A major tear down job.
You've lost me on help there. I can nearly slpit the cases with my eyes closed, but I left all the top end together.
This all started off because of a noise in the motor?
The main thing that makes noises (rattling and clanking) in these motors is the starter chain (Not the cam chain)
RPM and do a kit with all of the bits you will need for splitting the cases ("O" Rings and gaskets etc.) at a very reasonable price.
If you are going so far as to do a tolal strip down, you might as well do valve guides, piston rings, bearings and give the bores a hone.

Mark


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 21, 2018, 01:00:59 AM
A major tear down job.
You've lost me on help there. I can nearly slpit the cases with my eyes closed, but I left all the top end together.
This all started off because of a noise in the motor?
The main thing that makes noises (rattling and clanking) in these motors is the starter chain (Not the cam chain)
RPM and do a kit with all of the bits you will need for splitting the cases ("O" Rings and gaskets etc.) at a very reasonable price.
If you are going so far as to do a tolal strip down, you might as well do valve guides, piston rings, bearings and give the bores a hone.

Mark

It started because of the noise in engine i know about the starterchain noise i had that on my fj1100 30 years ago.I also got the startercahin noise on this bike .I also had it on other bikes this is different and the sound has gotten worse lately.Early this summer i tok the bike to the Yamaha dealer and spoke with a mechanic he was not sure what is was so he told me to speak with the senior chef mechanic who had lot of experience.I did and he tok the bike for a little ride and then he told me it was probably the camchain tensioner.My teory is that the bearing nearest the outputshaft sprocket  is broken.I told him but he says i could forget about that.So then i replaced the the camcahain and tensioner .
I was first planning to not take the head and cylinders off but then i realise that i had to if i want to replace the starterchain also handling the engine carrying it down into my cellar
is to heavy .Here is a little update : got the stubborn nut of and the head off it was some trouble getting the head off the cylinders i did not get of so i have primed the studs with the god old wd-40 and give it a try today.Here are some pics


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on September 21, 2018, 03:29:16 AM
The top end doesn't look too bad.

The valves seem in order, and I didn't see any obvious scoring of the bores.

From what you posted about the compression I think the top end is fine.

The carbon build up doesn't look out of the ordinary. The wet oil residue is likely left over from the compression test. The plugs look like it was running right.

Have you looked at the cam chain guide? I recently heard of and saw photos of a pretty messed up guide, but the bike still ran! Literally the guide was chewed up and not doing anything much for the cam chain.

When you dropped the sump was there much metal in the pick-up filter or on the magnet?

I'm a little bit opposite to Mark, I've done a top end, but never split the cases  :blush:.

The engine studs can be a little bit corroded and look bad. Mine were similar to yours.

Instead of replacing them, check them against one of your good ones. Do a tuning fork tap against a vice and you'll instantly know if they're sound (pun intended :crazy:). If they're too hard to remove pluck them from the tops like giant bass strings, the 'twang' should be the same. Before putting them back (or in place if you didn't remove them), instead of the 'guaranteed to fail' plastic coating, coat them in the black paint you use on combustion stoves (pot belly black here). It will give them some corrosion protection and allow the studs to grow a thin layer of oxide (that paint is intentionally porous) that will further protect them. Around the threads I rubbed some soft zinc off a boat anode to act as a sacrificial coating between the dissimilar metals of the nut and stud. Not perfect, but then neither was Yamaha.

If any of the studs are buggered, replace them. Randy can sort you out.

Between you and Mark, I might just attempt a case split........when I need to.....too busy getting things painted (nope, can't paint either  :wacko3:)

Troyskie


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 21, 2018, 12:49:35 PM
Hi Troskye!  god to hear your opinion i had expected more carbon build up or something more serious wrong but looks ok at first look.I will do a test laying the head uppsidedown and
pour some gasoline into the combustion cambers and se if it leak somewhere.Not to keen on starting to do to much work on the valves but i think mayby the springs have gotten weak and short and need replacement .
The camchain guide in front is a little cracked and  hard like bone.I was surprised i did not find more metal or gravel in the sump because the last 2 oilshifts i done was about 5 big pieces of a unidentified stuff locked like metal at first but after a wash the bits looked like gravel some of them was magnetic some not.I did only find som very small particles .May by the stuff from oilpan has gotten another place in engine as i rolled it.I havent yet filtered the oil i drained on deassembly but i will.
The oil pickup filter had some small things in it nothing magnetic and the mesh had gone loose so the mesh did not seal. The magnet on the drainplug did not have any stuff on it.
The oil on syl one pick is just because i sprayed it with wd-40 instead og the airduster spray.
Today I got problem when i tryed to get the cylinders off.I have hit them with a rubber hammer and with a ordinary hammer and wood.Then i tryed with some spring compressors as pullers
also with a flywheel puller nothing worked.The screw on the pickupcoil base also super tight bot came lose.If i knew that the bolt was so tight i would have loosened it before i tok the engine out.The other screws on the picupcoil was rounded so had to use a punch on them.
Now im scratching my head trying to find out if i can just leave the cylinders on and pull the crankshaft with the pistons on and if it is possible to get the crankshaft back in with the piston on ?. Tok some pics i tested resize them


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on September 21, 2018, 02:57:31 PM
The barrels can be hard to remove. Some of the dowels can corrode like the studs and lock the barrels on. Try the WD40 trick in their locations.

I'm not sure you can remove the crank with the barrels on. Here's a pic from Marks & my bible the Haynes manual. I think the nuts will be hard to reach and probably harder to re tighten to correct torque.

Why are you worried about the valve springs? If the shims and compression are within tolerance the springs should be ok. If you're concerned I've included a pic from Haynes with the spring info.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 21, 2018, 03:29:07 PM
Why are you worried about the valve springs?

For the same reason we change our fork springs. Springs get sacked after 30 years, esp. oem Japanese steel springs. True, new valve springs will not help compression/ leak down numbers, but new (modern steel) springs will help keep valve float away in the 8k-10k rpm kookaloo zone.

Old Rider, I suggest calling or emailing RPM and inquire about new valve springs, viton valve seals, hardened valve guides. DIY or send your head and valves out and have it decarboned and lap the valves. (If the valve boundaries and seats are in good condition)

Learn yourself, or get professional help on measuring your cylinder bore for wear and roundness.
This will dictate whether you can get away with a simple a cylinder wall hone (DIY) or needing an over bore (shop) along with figuring out what size new rings you need.

You've come this far. It would be a shame to leave everything as is, do all this work and end up with a reassembled engine that has future problems.

Just my opinion.   Cheers.  Pat


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: dammag on September 21, 2018, 04:36:40 PM
How did your exhaust valves look, looking into the exhaust port?

When I fitted my new exhaust last weekend I noticed a couple of the valves were a little "wet". This this on a relatively low mileage motor so I would expect you would replace the valve seals at least as a matter of course. And springs as well while it is apart.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on September 21, 2018, 06:32:22 PM
About the cranseals.. do they have to replaced ? are the new  seals without the flange and if do i have to use high temp silicone like yamabond or threebond on them when reasemble?
Is there a way to identify the shiftforks if they are before or after 1988 ? i bought a used transmision from ebay that supposed to come from a 1992 or 1994 fj1200 ABS.i suspect that transmission is not so good mayby worn.The previus owner of my bike had done some transmission work i dont know what.

I would say yes the seals should be replaced. They are 30 years old. Plus you have now disturbed them and they will most likely leak.

No sealant is required for the new seals, but just like on every corner joint, I put a little Permatex Ultra Black Silicone there to prevent leaks.
https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/ultra-series-gasket-makers/permatex-ultra-black-maximum-oil-resistance-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker-4/ (https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/ultra-series-gasket-makers/permatex-ultra-black-maximum-oil-resistance-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker-4/)

You can just look at the shift forks on the website and compare what you have to what is the current Yamaha offering. They are significantly shorter forks compared to the current forks.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on September 21, 2018, 06:32:55 PM
Now im scratching my head trying to find out if i can just leave the cylinders on and pull the crankshaft with the pistons on and if it is possible to get the crankshaft back in with the piston on ?. Tok some pics i tested resize them
No can do...

The pistons will not come through the case.

Did you pull the nut off the stud in the front of the block?

The was on some of the intakes valves looks odd to me.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on September 22, 2018, 01:17:28 AM
Why are you worried about the valve springs?

For the same reason we change our fork springs. Springs get sacked after 30 years, esp. oem Japanese steel springs. True, new valve springs will not help compression/ leak down numbers, but new (modern steel) springs will help keep valve float away in the 8k-10k rpm kookaloo zone.

Old Rider, I suggest calling or emailing RPM and inquire about new valve springs, viton valve seals, hardened valve guides. DIY or send your head and valves out and have it decarboned and lap the valves. (If the valve boundaries and seats are in good condition)

Just my opinion.   Cheers.  Pat

That's a good opinion Pat.

I did replace my springs with Randy's suggestion on the Yummy project for the same reasons you suggest.

Effie is due for a top end refresh after I get the painting sorted, but I think it will be pretty tame.

I am however, thinking of turning one of the no names into a track bike. Perhaps a bit like Pete's, just without the skill  :sarcastic:.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: fj1289 on September 22, 2018, 11:19:42 AM
Now im scratching my head trying to find out if i can just leave the cylinders on and pull the crankshaft with the pistons on and if it is possible to get the crankshaft back in with the piston on ?. Tok some pics i tested resize them
No can do...

The pistons will not come through the case.

Did you pull the nut off the stud in the front of the block?

The was on some of the intakes valves looks odd to me.

Randy - RPM

You could take the rods off the crank and push them out the top of the cylinder like on a typical v-8 engine.  But then you are still stuck with coaxing the cylinder block off - but the whole assembly will be much lighter. 


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 22, 2018, 12:06:52 PM
The barrels can be hard to remove. Some of the dowels can corrode like the studs and lock the barrels on. Try the WD40 trick in their locations.

I'm not sure you can remove the crank with the barrels on. Here's a pic from Marks & my bible the Haynes manual. I think the nuts will be hard to reach and probably harder to re tighten to correct torque.

Why are you worried about the valve springs? If the shims and compression are within tolerance the springs should be ok. If you're concerned I've included a pic from Haynes with the spring info.

Hi Mark Thanks for sharing the pics i see now on the pics it will mayby be impossible to get to the nuts i tough they was on the otherside .Anyway now the stuck  are almost off Big thanks to Randy telling me about the nut on the front hiding under the oiltube holder bracket that i did not see.After i got the invisible nut off and started to hammer it again it started to move :yahoo: just been down my cellar (yes i have now moved the beast from garage and down into my cellar.It was a good workout!) and hammering the cylinderblock for 2 hours and it is only 10 millimeters before it is off.
About the valvesprings i have same answer as Pat, but i will first measure them i think.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 22, 2018, 12:14:31 PM
Why are you worried about the valve springs?

For the same reason we change our fork springs. Springs get sacked after 30 years, esp. oem Japanese steel springs. True, new valve springs will not help compression/ leak down numbers, but new (modern steel) springs will help keep valve float away in the 8k-10k rpm kookaloo zone.

Old Rider, I suggest calling or emailing RPM and inquire about new valve springs, viton valve seals, hardened valve guides. DIY or send your head and valves out and have it decarboned and lap the valves. (If the valve boundaries and seats are in good condition)

Learn yourself, or get professional help on measuring your cylinder bore for wear and roundness.
This will dictate whether you can get away with a simple a cylinder wall hone (DIY) or needing an over bore (shop) along with figuring out what size new rings you need.

You've come this far. It would be a shame to leave everything as is, do all this work and end up with a reassembled engine that has future problems.

Just my opinion.   Cheers.  Pat

Hi Pat! I will contact randy not by phone because I'm really bad speaking English=) but by mail .Thanks for you advice!


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 22, 2018, 12:17:49 PM
How did your exhaust valves look, looking into the exhaust port?

When I fitted my new exhaust last weekend I noticed a couple of the valves were a little "wet". This this on a relatively low mileage motor so I would expect you would replace the valve seals at least as a matter of course. And springs as well while it is apart.

Hi danmmag! i have not looked at exhaustports  yet but i will.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 22, 2018, 12:31:00 PM
About the cranseals.. do they have to replaced ? are the new  seals without the flange and if do i have to use high temp silicone like yamabond or threebond on them when reasemble?
Is there a way to identify the shiftforks if they are before or after 1988 ? i bought a used transmision from ebay that supposed to come from a 1992 or 1994 fj1200 ABS.i suspect that transmission is not so good mayby worn.The previus owner of my bike had done some transmission work i dont know what.

I would say yes the seals should be replaced. They are 30 years old. Plus you have now disturbed them and they will most likely leak.

No sealant is required for the new seals, but just like on every corner joint, I put a little Permatex Ultra Black Silicone there to prevent leaks.
https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/ultra-series-gasket-makers/permatex-ultra-black-maximum-oil-resistance-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker-4/ (https://www.permatex.com/products/gasketing/ultra-series-gasket-makers/permatex-ultra-black-maximum-oil-resistance-rtv-silicone-gasket-maker-4/)

You can just look at the shift forks on the website and compare what you have to what is the current Yamaha offering. They are significantly shorter forks compared to the current forks.

Randy - RPM

Hi randy! thank you for reminding me about the nut, it was good at hiding down there that little bastard! So much easier to get that cylinder block start moving after it was gone :drinks: I will try to order the Permatex ultra black.Also new seals but aren't the seals with flange? I will also make an order when i get more into the engine and se what needed.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 22, 2018, 12:36:00 PM
Now im scratching my head trying to find out if i can just leave the cylinders on and pull the crankshaft with the pistons on and if it is possible to get the crankshaft back in with the piston on ?. Tok some pics i tested resize them
No can do...

The pistons will not come through the case.

Did you pull the nut off the stud in the front of the block?

The was on some of the intakes valves looks odd to me.

Randy - RPM

You could take the rods off the crank and push them out the top of the cylinder like on a typical v-8 engine.  But then you are still stuck with coaxing the cylinder block off - but the whole assembly will be much lighter. 

Hi Fj1289 thanks for advice but now the cylinder are almost off :good2:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on September 22, 2018, 01:56:06 PM
Now im scratching my head trying to find out if i can just leave the cylinders on and pull the crankshaft with the pistons on and if it is possible to get the crankshaft back in with the piston on ?. Tok some pics i tested resize them
No can do...

The pistons will not come through the case.

Randy - RPM

You could take the rods off the crank and push them out the top of the cylinder like on a typical v-8 engine.  But then you are still stuck with coaxing the cylinder block off - but the whole assembly will be much lighter. 

Chris,

Still no can do...

The rod nuts are on top of the rod so you have to have the cylinder off to get the rod nuts off.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: fj1289 on September 22, 2018, 09:20:51 PM
Now im scratching my head trying to find out if i can just leave the cylinders on and pull the crankshaft with the pistons on and if it is possible to get the crankshaft back in with the piston on ?. Tok some pics i tested resize them
No can do...

The pistons will not come through the case.

Randy - RPM

You could take the rods off the crank and push them out the top of the cylinder like on a typical v-8 engine.  But then you are still stuck with coaxing the cylinder block off - but the whole assembly will be much lighter. 

Chris,

Still no can do...

The rod nuts are on top of the rod so you have to have the cylinder off to get the rod nuts off.

Randy - RPM

 :Facepalm:

Forgot about that little detail!


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 24, 2018, 01:24:20 PM
Here is an uppdate not so much time to wrench on the engine but i managed to get the cylinders and pistons off havent had time to check them.I also have splitted the cases
i found that the starterchain damper seems to be worn out also when spinning the transmission it runs very easy mayby to easy? it is also a little grumling sound on the output chaft when turning it i have not had time to take it out yet.There is also clacking sound from transmission when i turn it back and forth.It Sems there has happened something to the lower case in the past as it is welded or something.also some helicoils mounted .I will try to check more tomorrow.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on September 24, 2018, 01:29:38 PM
Here is post showing the timing & starter chain wear compared to new: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16008.msg163337#msg163337 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16008.msg163337#msg163337)

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 24, 2018, 01:47:54 PM
Here is post showing the timing & starter chain wear compared to new: [url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16008.msg163337#msg163337[/url] ([url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16008.msg163337#msg163337[/url])

Randy - RPM


Im definit in for a startercahain and damper replacement also think a have to replace camchainsliders.Tomorrow i will check some more on the transmission .The starterclutch
also was very lose and noisy when i moved it with fingers.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 25, 2018, 11:56:39 AM
Today i done a little more I have compared the transmission i bought from ebay with the one i have in the bike.Cant really see any difference both seems loose or worn but I'm not a specialist so hard to say.Both are loose with the gears feeling wobbly the geardogs look okay i think.The bearings runs fine but may by worn as they rotate wery easy?
There is a little sideplay in the bearings one has more play than others.The shiftforks seems fine with minimal wear on the contacsurfaces,But on the innside they look bad with scratches .I found that when rotating the transmission the innside of shiftforks make scraping sounds against the innside grove on gears.I have never had problems with the gearbox ,but think i will replace the shiftforks and bearings.Shiftdrum looks good cant see any wear on the sides in the groves and the bearing seems fine.
I had to rush away from wrencing today as i saw a Kawasaki gpz1000rx cheep for sale .I looked very nice but when i took it for a little ride i almost lost it in a u turn because the front wheel was sticking bad.That is a quick fix ,but then there was a bad noise from engine. when rotating the rear wheel on stand there was a bad clacking sound from frontsprocket.I dont want to do another engine teardown right now so i sayd to seller have to think about it until tomorrow.I have always liked the gpz1000rx in black.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: balky1 on September 26, 2018, 12:52:01 AM
I think RXs had some crankshaft problem right out of the factory. Many failed as I heard. Is it just a rumor, who knows.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 26, 2018, 06:19:45 AM
I think RXs had some crankshaft problem right out of the factory. Many failed as I heard. Is it just a rumor, who knows.
That is god to know balky1 the bike is still for sale what i found out is its a fast bike on starights but dosent like to turn and brake :sarcastic: but i still thinking of bying it i wish i had a big garage.
Nothing new on the engine had not had time i bought a torch and a screw extractor today because the screws holding the timigplate broke off when trying to get them out .Someone has used blue thred lock on them thanks!


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 27, 2018, 01:12:57 PM
Not much done today only retracting 2 screws holding the pickup coil base that po had used threadlock on. They broke off when i tryed to unsrew them first time.
Also checked the startrerclutch and could not find anything wrong exept the rubberdampers is hard as stone so i will replace them and mayby the springs.
Did  measure the one of the pistons diameter and it measured 76.95 millimeter 3millimeter up on the skirt.I  dont know what correct size should be because i only got the fj1100 manual.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Urban_Legend on September 27, 2018, 09:32:31 PM
Mmmm Love starter clutches. They are the reason I know how to split the cases so well. 1st time  -I got a new (to me) 1200 motor but the starter clutch would not engage, split the case new clutch bits inserted, re assemble. same issue
2nd time...we must have stuffed up something. Split the case, check everything very carefully. All good. Reassemble. still won't engase
3rd time. Split old motor, remove its starter clutch. Split new new motor again, insert old starter clutch (untouched as I knew it worked fine) reassemble again (learned how to bench test). and bingo. we have sweet music.

Was a long week.

Mark


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on September 28, 2018, 03:01:20 AM
Mate, My Haynes manual is stating the measure for the bore is taken 40mm from the top of the cylinder both parallel and perpendicular to the crankshaft. Bore measurement for 1200 comes out at 77mm factory standard, as measured above.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 28, 2018, 10:19:41 AM
Mmmm Love starter clutches. They are the reason I know how to split the cases so well. 1st time  -I got a new (to me) 1200 motor but the starter clutch would not engage, split the case new clutch bits inserted, re assemble. same issue
2nd time...we must have stuffed up something. Split the case, check everything very carefully. All good. Reassemble. still won't engase
3rd time. Split old motor, remove its starter clutch. Split new new motor again, insert old starter clutch (untouched as I knew it worked fine) reassemble again (learned how to bench test). and bingo. we have sweet music.

Was a long week.

Mark

That sound like fun im hoping my starterclutch work on reasemble. :shok:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 28, 2018, 10:22:13 AM
Mate, My Haynes manual is stating the measure for the bore is taken 40mm from the top of the cylinder both parallel and perpendicular to the crankshaft. Bore measurement for 1200 comes out at 77mm factory standard, as measured above.


Okay i have to order that manual and also a new tool to measure the bore..


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on September 28, 2018, 10:26:46 AM
Today i have prepped pistons with mr muscle to remove carbon.The innside of cylinderhead i filled with wd-40 to see
if it leaks the wd was in there for about 3 hours and did not see any leaking.the wd40 will also make it easier to
remove carbon deposits .I will let it work for a day or more.I did a quick measure on one piston then i discovered
that one of the feelergauge set i have was a totally different size when using my digital calipper to check the
feeler gauge.I says mm but something is wrong.The other gauge i have is correct with the digital calipergauge i
have.The rings was in spec but not when measured in the cylinder.How much has that to say? The compression readings
i did before teardown was good and the bike dosent smoke or burn oil.I guess i replace springs anyway,but they arent
cheep.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on October 06, 2018, 11:01:45 AM
Here is a little update .I was much job to clean out the carbon deposits took several rounds with carb cleaner gasket remover and mr muscle an note about mr muscle DONT leave it to long in the bag because when i removed the pistons they where very dark in color the alu had reacted with mr muscle.Same was for the sylinderhead.I have started to remowe the valves
today .A quick measurement of some of the springs showed they was in spec and well innside the vorn out margins.Same for the valves.I will measure all springs and valves thoroughly tomorrow. The valveseats had som minor pitting and i will lap them later.The pistons also in spec and the piston to cylinder clearance is about 0.04 and 0.05 mm so i only need to replace pistonsprings and hone the cylinders.The pistonrings was almost in spec exept for the toprings that was way out of margins.Also i diskovered a blue ring on the crank where the starterchain goes.I really enjoying this wrenching best recreation ever .Sometimes i swear and shout but i love it anyway  :sarcastic:I have been in contact with Randy and Robert at RPM and sorting out all parts i need to order.
Her are some pics i tryed to resize them to load quicker.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on October 08, 2018, 08:27:56 AM
New update
Now i have measured all valves and valvesprings.The valves is in spec exept for the measurement at the top end of stem the manual say the top have to be 4mm long my measure is about 3.90 i dont know if i measure it wrong also the end of it looks very nice and flat so im not sure .No valves are bendt.I had problems measure the face width and seat width  on the exhaust valves and dont know if i did it right.
 I was surprised it seems the springs has very little vear all innersprings measured from 39.17 to 39.40mm new they are 39.65mm  and the vear limit is 37.65mm
The outersprings also god measured from 40.89mm to 41.12mm new they are 41.10mm and wear limit is 39.00mm
All springs also passed the tilt limit test.One thing i havent measured it the springforce so dont know if they have Got softer...
I dont have a proper measuretool for the cylinders but have measured them by using a method  where you first put the pistonring on top of cylinder on the cleaned unworn section and measure the endgap then place the same pistonring down on the worn part of cylinder and take new measurement.Then subtract the first measuremet from second and multiply it by 7 and divide by 22 .It supposed to be a exact measurement but I think i will take the cylinders to a shop so it can be measured for roundness anyway.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on October 16, 2018, 07:44:01 AM
So here is another uppdate
here is a little uppdate i have now cleaned and lapped the valves it took alot more time than i expected.I also
checked the valguide clearances and hey are vell innside limit.
I have tested if the valves leak after i have lapped them by first pour soapwater in the combustion chamber then
blow with pressurized air into the inntake and exhaust ports and look for bubbles it did not leak.I did another test
by filling lighterfluid into the inntake and exhaustports  no leaks.But there is a concern and that is that the
seatwith on the valves are on the limit, on some valves they are 1,4mm same as limit.They shuld be between 0.8-1.1mm
im not sure what happens if i dont recut the seats ?.I spoke to a shop that does valvejobs and they was very
expensive about recutting the valveseats.
I have also compared the transmission i bought on ebay with the one i have in my bike.I think i found that the ebay
transmission is a little less worn than mine but still it looks worn i think.But i also found that mine have to be a
fj1100 transmission so someone has changed it or at least the first gear wheel because it does not have a collar
innside the first gear.se pictures.
I checked on parts diagram and only the fj1100 has that firstgear wheel without the collar.Also on all the other
gears there is a grove on the outside on mine this grove does not exist so im guessing hole transmission is from a
fj1100.I have not had any problems with second gear dropping out tough.On my 1100 i had about 30years ago i had
secongear dropping out when hard acellerate.
Now i have ordered another transmission from ebay that looked very nice so hoping to use that one.
Had a look at the crankbearings som of them are scratched.I will do a plastigage test on them later but I wonder if its normal that they are not in angliment i mean placed in the center og its support?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Urban_Legend on October 16, 2018, 03:34:27 PM
Hi

With the second gear isse in the 1100's, it is not so much the the gear cluster that is the issue, but the shift forks/yokes. they bend in the 1100 causing the gear to junp. they fixed this on the 1200 with a stronger shift yoke.
As far as I was aware, I thought the actuall gears were the same on the 1100 and 1200.

Mark


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on October 17, 2018, 10:55:43 AM
Hi

With the second gear isse in the 1100's, it is not so much the the gear cluster that is the issue, but the shift forks/yokes. they bend in the 1100 causing the gear to junp. they fixed this on the 1200 with a stronger shift yoke.
As far as I was aware, I thought the actuall gears were the same on the 1100 and 1200.

Mark

Yes that is what i heard that the 1200 has stronger shiftforks that is why i bought the 1200 as i remember it was an expensive repair on my 1100 lots of years ago even if i got a friend of my coworker to do the repair for me.
I did a quick check on ebay to look at pictures of 1100 and 1200 transmissions to compare and it looks like the 1100 doesnt have the grove on outside of the gears.

Quick uppdate today i been at the gas station and washed the cases with degreaser starting to get them ready for paint


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on October 25, 2018, 12:47:11 PM
Small uppdate Not much happening i have painted the cases  head and cylinder with enginepaint .Today the engine parts i ordered from RPM arrived  :yahoo:.Thanks to Randy and Robert for helping out with what i needed and for fast shipping!. Yesterday the second transmission i ordered from ebay also arrived and it looks great much better than the one i ordered from ebay earlier and the one that was sitting in the bike .This one looks brand new so happy with that.
I have also been lapping the last valves ,but think i have to recut the seats because the seatwith is a little to wide and sitting to far down on the valveface.I think i will buy a Neway seatcutter with angle 30 degree and cut the top of seat.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on October 26, 2018, 09:10:01 PM
 :good2:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 21, 2018, 02:13:33 AM
Time for some uppdates.I Here are the parts i ordered from RPM that vill be replaced also replacing the gerabox with longer shiftforks.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 21, 2018, 02:21:29 AM
Here are some picks of the starterchain and camchains .I will replace the D.I.D camchain that i replaced back in june because it seems a little more weak also it is more unstable when lying over the sprockets.It is 1mm lower in profile wieved from side.It is supposed to fit a fj1200 but i dont want to take the chance that it might snap when i rebuildt the engine.
Notice how stretched the old chain in the middle is.The New genuine chain is at top pick the D.I.D chain is at the bottom of the pic


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 21, 2018, 02:30:04 AM
here are some picks of starterchain and damper.The old starterchain is a little stretched and it is much more loose and sloppy .Notise how much more i could bend it vs the new chain.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 21, 2018, 02:46:35 AM
Here i did a test of the pistonring engap with the new rings all of the rings had a endgap of 0.20 - 0.25mm the old rings i measured earlier was worn out with endgaps ranging from 0.80mm to 1.15mm on top rings and 0.55 mm to 0.80mm on second ring


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ribbert on November 21, 2018, 06:20:56 AM
Here are some picks of the starterchain and camchains .I will replace the D.I.D camchain that i replaced back in june because it seems a little more weak also it is more unstable when lying over the sprockets.It is 1mm lower in profile wieved from side.It is supposed to fit a fj1200 but i dont want to take the chance that it might snap when i rebuildt the engine.
Notice how stretched the old chain in the middle is.The New genuine chain is at top pick the D.I.D chain is at the bottom of the pic

Old Rider, Borg Warner make the best chains, I believe that is what Yamaha use from the factory (OEM) They come in both endless and split (rivet link) for a bit over $50 US

Noel


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 21, 2018, 11:03:25 AM
Ribbert that is god to know .the chain i bought is from RPM and is the orginal yamaha chain.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 21, 2018, 11:15:21 AM
And now for the big question... have i ruined the pistons im asking because after i had cleaned off the carbon with ovencleaner the piston got a black color.I then tryed many different
metods to get the black stuff off without luck.I then used superfine 2500 grit paper and buffed by hand i got them clean and shiny,but now i started to think that they had a coating that now is gone and mayby they can not be reused ?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on November 21, 2018, 11:53:16 AM
As long as you didn't damage the ring lands and pin bore, I don't see a problem.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 21, 2018, 12:07:04 PM
As long as you didn't damage the ring lands and pin bore, I don't see a problem.

I forgot in the post to say that i was very careful in the ringland zone i used a flat woodstick with the paper wrapped around it then i buffed in same direction as the ring groves.
The ringroves i used a piece of the old composite cylindergasket and scraped the carbon deposits out.The diameter of the piston is still the same . But isent the piston coated from factory?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on November 21, 2018, 12:22:03 PM
I'm not sure, but I don't think so.....the engine experts will advise.

I am a fan of Swain coatings. They have a nice anti-scuff coating they can do on your piston skirts along with a thermal coat they apply to the crown.
http://swaintech.com/advanced-coating-technology/ (http://swaintech.com/advanced-coating-technology/)
http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/motorcycle-coatings/motorcycle-coatings-price-sheet/ (http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/motorcycle-coatings/motorcycle-coatings-price-sheet/)

They have an option for thicker skirt coating to tighten up piston/cylinder wall clearances up if needed.

For a street bike with standard compression, the coatings would be overkill, nice to have, but unnecessary.

I sent my oem collector box to them for their White Lightning thermal coating and I can say that coating really works on keeping things cooler under there.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 21, 2018, 12:45:32 PM
I'm not sure, but I don't think so.....the engine experts will advise.

I am a fan of Swain coatings. They have a nice anti-scuff coating they can do on your piston skirts along with a thermal coat they apply to the crown.
[url]http://swaintech.com/advanced-coating-technology/[/url] ([url]http://swaintech.com/advanced-coating-technology/[/url])
[url]http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/motorcycle-coatings/motorcycle-coatings-price-sheet/[/url] ([url]http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/motorcycle-coatings/motorcycle-coatings-price-sheet/[/url])

They have an option for thicker skirt coating to tighten up piston/cylinder wall clearances up if needed.

For a street bike with standard compression, the coatings would be overkill, nice to have, but unnecessary.

I sent my oem collector box to them for their White Lightning thermal coating and I can say that coating really works on keeping things cooler under there.

That is interesting reading , does the coating you got on the collector box have a flat finish ? im thinking of ceramic coating the headers on mine but if it is flat white its hard to clean.I asked a company here in norway that is working with chromeing stuff if they could make a black chrome finish on the headers but they did not do black chrome.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on November 21, 2018, 03:11:17 PM
The Swain White Lightning coating had a white granular finish which I spray painted (VHT) black.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: krusty on November 21, 2018, 05:07:14 PM
And now for the big question... have i ruined the pistons im asking because after i had cleaned off the carbon with ovencleaner the piston got a black color.I then tryed many different
metods to get the black stuff off without luck.I then used superfine 2500 grit paper and buffed by hand i got them clean and shiny,but now i started to think that they had a coating that now is gone and mayby they can not be reused ?
Anyone, please correct me if you think this old fart's memory is faulty. I read/saw/heard somewhere in the distant past that the sides of new pistons had a lightly linished finish which assisted in retaining oil on their sides thus promoting reduced wear and longer life. Would "polishing" the pistons counter this. Again, I'm refering to the sides of the piston as polishing the crown would help reduce carbon build up.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ribbert on November 21, 2018, 09:16:54 PM

The ringroves i used a piece of the old composite cylindergasket and scraped the carbon deposits out.....

A piston ring groove cleaner is a cheap enough special tool to justify buying even for just a job or two. You could probably buy one for less than $30.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4888/31054897047_b3cc5fd285_b.jpg)

However, in the absence of that, using the gap end of an old piston ring as a scraping tool will do the job, it will give the grooves a nice square profile.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4841/45269393394_85bb2f9f47_z.jpg)

I've always treated ring grooves as a precision part of the piston. They need to be perfectly clean and uniform and I wouldn't put a power tool, such as a dremmel or any other none precision implement in there. Some of the deposits in there can be difficult to dislodge and require something hard metallic and the right shape to get those internal corners perfect, IMO.

I know modern engines are not as bad for deposits but I still think it's something worth doing right.

Noel


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ribbert on November 22, 2018, 12:57:08 AM

Anyone, please correct me if you think this old fart's memory is faulty. I read/saw/heard somewhere in the distant past that the sides of new pistons had a lightly linished finish which assisted in retaining oil on their sides thus promoting reduced wear and longer life. Would "polishing" the pistons counter this. Again, I'm refering to the sides of the piston as polishing the crown would help reduce carbon build up.

All things considered, it sounds like a reasonable proposition, but it's not something I've heard of (which doesn't mean a thing). Coatings on the skirts are popular for that reason, some are literally to aid running in, some are meant to be worn away to customize the 'shape' of piston and some are long life friction coatings.

Thinking it through, I'm not sure if the piston having a surface that the oil is more likely to cling to would be a help, there is a lot of oil splashing around there already.

You may well be right, but that's my take on it. We have experts here who will know.


As for Old Rider, by his own words and deeds, he has demonstrated a passion for pulling his FJ apart in pursuit of the 'noise'. If it becomes a problem, well, he'll just have to pull it down and fix it. :biggrin:


......I really enjoying this wrenching best recreation ever. Sometimes i swear and shout but i love it anyway......


Good on you OR, that's the spirit that keeps these old girls alive. (...and I salute your enthusiasm)

Noel


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ribbert on November 22, 2018, 02:32:13 AM
And now for the big question... have i ruined the pistons im asking because after i had cleaned off the carbon with ovencleaner the piston got a black color.I then tryed many different
metods to get the black stuff off without luck
.I then used superfine 2500 grit paper and buffed by hand i got them clean and shiny,but now i started to think that they had a coating that now is gone and mayby they can not be reused ?

The black stuff was never going to come off, it is where the aluminium has dissolved out of the alloy and the colour is that of the remaining metals. It's not something on the surface but rather what is left when the surface is removed. We are talking at a microcopic level here. Keep in mind though it is possible to ruin parts with caustic soda (Sodium Hydroxide being the active ingredient in oven cleaner)

However, I would think with oven cleaner for a short time that you haven't done anything other than change the superficial appearance, I wouldn't worry about it (but don't do it again).

Noel


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 22, 2018, 03:44:49 AM

As for Old Rider, by his own words and deeds, he has demonstrated a passion for pulling his FJ apart in pursuit of the 'noise'. If it becomes a problem, well, he'll just have to pull it down and fix it. :biggrin:

Ribbert: you pretty much nailed it always been a diy man.Interesting pistonringgrove cleaning tool you got there looks  like made in  first world war :biggrin:



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 22, 2018, 03:57:08 AM
And now for the big question... have i ruined the pistons im asking because after i had cleaned off the carbon with ovencleaner the piston got a black color.I then tryed many different
metods to get the black stuff off without luck
.I then used superfine 2500 grit paper and buffed by hand i got them clean and shiny,but now i started to think that they had a coating that now is gone and mayby they can not be reused ?

The black stuff was never going to come off, it is where the aluminium has dissolved out of the alloy and the colour is that of the remaining metals. It's not something on the surface but rather what is left when the surface is removed. We are talking at a microcopic level here. Keep in mind though it is possible to ruin parts with caustic soda (Sodium Hydroxide being the active ingredient in oven cleaner)

However, I would think with oven cleaner for a short time that you haven't done anything other than change the superficial appearance, I wouldn't worry about it (but don't do it again).

Noel

Ribbert:That explanation seems right  and when i used the ovencleaner i did the mistake doing it too long.First i put the pistons in the bags with the ovencleaner mayby 2 hours.The carbondeposits was still a little hard so then i put them a second time and for many hours .I didnt know then that it could react bad with the aliminium i read about that on internet later :dash2:
I have now taken som better pics of the piston ring groves looking at the piston with naked eye they look clean but now on the pics i see the piston ring groves need a little more cleaning


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: dammag on November 22, 2018, 04:33:39 AM
I wouldn't get too carried away cleaning the ring grooves. The rings should be free to move in the grooves with less than the maximum ring to groove clearance.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ribbert on November 22, 2018, 04:52:10 AM

Interesting pistonringgrove cleaning tool you got there looks  like made in  first world war :biggrin:



Interestingly, the design of those has not been changed, tweaked, improved or altered one bit from nearly 50 years ago when I first bought one to the current day.

Noel


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ribbert on November 22, 2018, 06:23:23 AM
I wouldn't get too carried away cleaning the ring grooves. The rings should be free to move in the grooves with less than the maximum ring to groove clearance.

For me, the ring needs more clearance than just being free to move, it needs a clean, flat surface to seal on the bottom, and above, the clearance is an engineered gap to allow the right amount of pressure to get behind the ring. Either one of those functions compromised by dirty grooves affects the rings ability to seal properly.

Noel


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 22, 2018, 06:39:38 AM
I have measured and checked the oilpump following the workshop manual and haynes manual instructions with feelerblades everything was in spec ,but when i took a closer look
i found broken splines on the axle.I think i have to replace the hole pump unit .Dont know if this was causing bad noise in engine.Earlier before i dismantled the engine when i replaced the clutch basket and bearings i felt that the oilpump sprocket was very sloppy / wobbly on the axle.I spoke with a mecanick at yamaha he sayd that its normal that the sprocket is loose but not too loose  .I have not had a look at the splines of the sprocket yet.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 22, 2018, 11:34:48 AM
I have also recieved the valveseat cutter tool from ebay  and started to cut the valveseats.The purpose to cut the seat is because the valveseat width is to wide.The spec of the valveseat shuld be 0.9mm to 1.4 mm if it is wider than 1.4mm it has to be cut acording to workshop manual.I have never done this before so i was a little nervous to mess up.On other hand i only had to cut the top angle the first cut with 30 degree cutter.If i had to cut the 45 degree cut it will be a little more difficult i think.I have finished 12 valves i replaced some of the exhaustvalves because it had a deep dent/pitting in middle of the valveface .It was not leaking vhen i tested them but i the long time it maby will so i replaced some.
There are also 3 inntakevalves with a dent in the valveface so i have ordered some new that will be replaced.One thing i find a little strange was when i started on the intakevalves i notised the angle on the valveseat before i cut it was much different than 30 degree it is more like 90 degree the manual says to use 30 degre cutter so i did.On the exhaust valveseats the angle was more like 30 degre on the cutter i think it was 15 degree. I almost did a stupid thing and install the new valvestemseals before i was finish with the valves
luckily i did not because then they will be worn or ripped when lapping and working on the valves.On the smaller exhaustvalves the cuttertool was to big so i had to cut off a part of the outer end on the cutterblades se pick.I have been very careful to keep things free from metalshavings using a vacum cleaner between the cuts also used paper down in the holes and lubricate the valvestem each time its inserted. this was a long post... and many pics if anyone know if i done something wrong pleas tell me :biggrin:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on November 23, 2018, 02:21:16 PM
I would lean toward the wider side of the valve seat width spec for the exhaust valves.  The valve uses this contact area to transfer heat from the valve to the head


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 24, 2018, 02:01:32 AM
I would lean toward the wider side of the valve seat width spec for the exhaust valves.  The valve uses this contact area to transfer heat from the valve to the head

I read about that somewhere too, one thing i didnt find out is what happens if the valveface widt is too wide but i think the valvesprings then need to be stronger to keep a tight seal
and that it is greater chance of carbon debree getting jammed in the seal.
One correction on my earlier post : the valvefacewidth specs shuld be  0.9mm to 1.1 mm  not 0.9mm to 1.4 mm wich is wrong.The limit is 1.4mm.
Another thing i have not figured out is what material the exhaust valves are made of .They are not magnetic like the inntakevalves.I heard that if the valves are made of titanium they have a coating that can not be lapped.The manual sys to lap them so i guess they not titanium?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 24, 2018, 06:12:39 AM
I have now recieved the inntakevalves that needed replacement and lapped them .The valve stem seals is also installed .I bought a valvestemseal remowal and instalation tool on ebay
The quality was hongkong bad but the price was very sheep so better than nothing.The plier was useless impossible to remowe the old sels with it so i used a thick sharp wood stick
instead.I read in another tread here that it was difficult to install the seals from RPM that is why i bought the tool.The tool was working great to install the seals but it was very difficult to know if the seals was installed deep enough in right place and to seat them right.I read that you should feel that it smacks inplace but there was no feel of that at all.So i then used the backend of the digital caliper and measured inside the hole of the seal to see how far it was to the top of the valveguide to top of seal to get a clue.I know Randy sayd not to use hammer when installing but i used one very gently tapping on back of the sealinstaller to be sure it was in place.Also used little grease inside seal.Here are some pics


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 25, 2018, 04:51:24 AM
new uppdate: installed the springs and cottarpins on the last 3 valves.The cottarpins is very frustrating to get in
place i found at trick online to use a dab of grease innside cottarpins as a glue to hold them in place.It works
okay but it is still a pain to install them fiddling with toothpics and pliers .On the springs and innside the
spring sylinder i used assembly lube and some moly disulfate grease on the top .Used moly grease on the valvestems also.
Dont have a sprinforce measuretool and dont want to buy one so  i made a tool that i will seek patent on (just
kidding).It is a woodblock with a hole drilled ø-25mm  and 34.8mm deep .Then put it on a digital scale and put the
spring innside and compress the spring so its flush with the top of wood it is then compressed to 34.8mm  take the
reading on the scale.  the measurement is of cource not acurate but i think its close.The springs all had a
springforce close to or little over the spec from manual wich is 13,3 to 15.7 kg.The innerspring shall be compressed
to 32.8mm so i used a coin to make the hole shorter in dept.
Filled the combustion chambers with painters alkohol for a couple of hours to se if it was any leak.I did not have
compressed air this time to blow in the inntake and exhaustports to se after airbubbles but did blow with my mouth into the inntakerubbers i then got a nice black  ring around my mouth when looked in mirror afterwards  :lol: will test again with copressed air another day.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ribbert on November 25, 2018, 07:03:56 AM

.....Filled the combustion chambers with painters alkohol for a couple of hours to se if it was any leak.I did not have
compressed air this time to blow in the inntake and exhaustports to se after airbubbles but did blow with my mouth into the inntakerubbers....

Middle Aged Rider, you might find it easier to observe how well the valve is sealing by pouring the liquid into the port side and observe for any weeping around the seats from the combustion chamber side.
Also, you can just use petrol (gasoline)

Sounds like it's coming along well, I look forward to the day when you report the 'noise' is gone. :biggrin:

Noel


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 25, 2018, 02:55:34 PM

.....Filled the combustion chambers with painters alkohol for a couple of hours to se if it was any leak.I did not have
compressed air this time to blow in the inntake and exhaustports to se after airbubbles but did blow with my mouth into the inntakerubbers....

Middle Aged Rider, you might find it easier to observe how well the valve is sealing by pouring the liquid into the port side and observe for any weeping around the seats from the combustion chamber side.
Also, you can just use petrol (gasoline)

Sounds like it's coming along well, I look forward to the day when you report the 'noise' is gone. :biggrin:

Noel

i should change my nick when found out yesterday that im actually young in here when people told me they have pair of
socks that is older than me :shok:
im going to try what you sayd about pouring into the ports.
looking forward to the startup and first ride day i thing will be using a double set of earplugs to be sure the noise is gone.
Next on the list now is to use superfine grit wetsandpaper on the gasketarea to clean it up a bit but is that a bad
idea? and is it possible to make the surface too smooth?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ryanschoebel on November 25, 2018, 07:40:39 PM
ifound out yesterday that im actually young in here

Man, I'm 22. I'm still in diapers to a lot of the guys on here! You're doing just fine haha


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Millietant on November 25, 2018, 11:59:47 PM
Personally I’d never use wet & dry of sandpaper on a gasket surface. I’d always be worrying about “grit” and about “over-sanding”. Maybe I’m worrying about nothing ?

My tool of choice a hard plastic scraper (or a Stanley knife blade held almost flat) - and then a light final clean with a soft/fine scotchbrite pad.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ribbert on November 26, 2018, 06:19:42 AM

Next on the list now is to use superfine grit wetsandpaper on the gasketarea to clean it up a bit but is that a bad
idea? and is it possible to make the surface too smooth?

Hand sanding can only lead to a wavy, irregular surface. Leave it alone, just scrape all the surfaces as clean as you can get them. The gasket will absorb any remaining burrs, marks and fine grit. The main thing is that it's flat, hand rubbing the surface is counter productive to this pursuit.

The poor man's head shave is covering a sheet of thick glass (it's flat) with fine emery paper and working the head back and forth over it until you have uniform marking, I have done this on a warped BMW (car) head after an over heating / head gasket blowing episode a long way from anywhere. It worked.

You have the time and you seem to enjoy DIY procedures, have a go at it.

Flat is preferable to smooth.

Noel


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on November 26, 2018, 12:36:26 PM
Another thing i have not figured out is what material the exhaust valves are made of .They are not magnetic like the inntakevalves.I heard that if the valves are made of titanium they have a coating that can not be lapped.The manual sys to lap them so i guess they not titanium?

Non-magnetic means the exhaust valves are Stainless Steel.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on November 26, 2018, 01:44:55 PM
Excellent work, detail and documentation. A couple of things I see and/or recommend.

1) Now that you have cut the seats, you need to make sure you check valve clearances. If the valve sinks or is lower into the seat too much, the valve stem becomes too long and you run out of shim adjustment. If that is the case, you might need to have the tips of the valves ground down. This is not something you can do on your bench grinder at home. A valve cutting machine had the correct stone and holds the valve square to ensure the tip of the valve is square to the stem.

With the head elevated from the bench surface to prevent the head of the vale from hitting the bench, install buckets & shims on one side only. Lube up the cam journals and install one cam only. From them rotate the cam around and check your clearances. Depending on what you measure, you might have to calculate having the valves "tipped".

Never install both cams at the same time as you will end up with bent valves. Also ensure the head is elevated enough that the valves can't contact the bench, that will also bend the spindly 5.5mm valve stems.

2) That oil pump is junk, time for a new one.

3) Be careful of using the paper like you are or even shop rags for that matter. The lint left behind will get into the oil stream and be collected by  the pick-up screen causing a restriction. When building my engines I only use lint free paper towels and an air gun. I have total gone away from cloth towels due to the lint left behind. https://goodson.com/products/assembly-wipes-white?variant=16931842228335

4) On the spring check. I would be leery of the hole in the wood not being large enough. If the spring rubs on the side of the wood at all then you will not get a true rating of the spring. All spring checkers are two discs and nothing contacting the sides of them. You might try and bore a larger hole, then recheck or put some wax paper around the spring and see if your readings change.
https://youtu.be/3Hyw3fantpk?t=66

5) I see no issue with sanding the head with the correct tool. I have this aluminum sanding block that I use regularly to clean up the head surface when I do not have excessive warping. It is strictly for surface clean up, not any type of surfacing or repairs. this tool uses 1.5" emery cloth and I use 240 grit.

Keep up the good work, Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 26, 2018, 02:00:54 PM
Another thing i have not figured out is what material the exhaust valves are made of .They are not magnetic like the inntakevalves.I heard that if the valves are made of titanium they have a coating that can not be lapped.The manual sys to lap them so i guess they not titanium?

Non-magnetic means the exhaust valves are Stainless Steel.

okey that was good it wasent titanium.

Ribbert: why did you have mention the method of pouring gasoline into the ports :smile: i did today  used painters alcohol and i got 2 of the inntake valves leaking  :dash2: not much but still leaking.
I also did the test with compressed air first and then they seemed tight.
I then dismantled and lapped them.. now after they are mounted again one still got a very minor leak so i be relap again tomorrow.
I used the pour into exhaustport method eariler before i used the valveseatcutter tool and then all was tight ..


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 26, 2018, 02:22:58 PM
hello Randy and thanks for alot of useful information its sure needed.I did not quite understand about the grinding of the valves is it at the top end of stem or the head of valve?
About the hole in wood springforcetool i guess you are right all the springs are now mounted so i not so keen on take every thing out again but i think at least i do some mayby i also take them to yamaha dealer and ask if they can check them.
I will try to benchshim i measured the cams earlier and find that many of the exhaustcam lobes was  a tiny bit under limit the  journals measured with plastigage was in spec but mayby i have to replace the exhaust cam


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on November 26, 2018, 02:57:21 PM
hello Randy and thanks for alot of useful information its sure needed.I did not quite understand about the grinding of the valves is it at the top end of stem or the head of valve?

I will try to bench shim i measured the cams earlier and find that many of the exhaust cam lobes was  a tiny bit under limit the  journals measured with plastigage was in spec but maybe i have to replace the exhaust cam

Top of the stem. As you cut the seats, you are dropping the valve deeper into the head/seat and the valve stem become effectively longer when compared to the cam lobe. The tip of the valve needs to be ground down to compensate for the valve head being farther into the seat.

As far as the cam journals, run what you have. For our race car applications, we actually bore the head out to increase the clearance to prevent camshaft breakage. Your wear is going to be be fine.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on November 26, 2018, 05:08:37 PM
1) Now that you have cut the seats, you need to make sure you check valve clearances. If the valve sinks or is lower into the seat too much, the valve stem becomes too long and you run out of shim adjustment. If that is the case, you might need to have the tips of the valves ground down. This is not something you can do on your bench grinder at home. A valve cutting machine had the correct stone and holds the valve square to ensure the tip of the valve is square to the stem.

I had to do this exact thing when I installed SS valves many years ago.  Just as Randy described, I pre-checked my clearances and realized that Yamaha doesn't make shims small enough for the clearances I was measuring.  When I had my original head work done to fix several warped valve seats (a known problem for the first few years) they had to recut the seats just like you are doing.

I called the AFTERMARKET (Kibble-White?) valve manufacturer and they said it was okay to grind the stems shorter.  I made measurements on the valve length and installation location and made a detailed list of how much to remove on each valve.  I know a guy that builds race engines and I was able to use his VALVE GRINDING machine to perform the work.  

Everything worked out fine and I have what I would consider "normal" clearances.

A word of warning.  I don't know about the valve stems, but I was told to NEVER grind the valve face of a STOCK Yamaha valve (to clean up pitting) because they are surface hardened and any grinding would remove that hardened surface.  I originally had to replace about 4 valves because the warped seat had badly pitted some exhaust valves.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 28, 2018, 12:14:13 PM
About the cams : i meant the lobes on the exhaust cam was worn a little under specs the measure from top of lobe the "A" measure in manual .When i measured the round the "B" measure the measures was in spec so can i then still use the cam? The runout is ok.
I have earlier mesured the jornals with plastigage and all was in spec.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 28, 2018, 12:24:10 PM
About the valves: i have not cut the 45 degree angle on the valveseats only the top cut 30 degree so then i mayby dont have to grind the valvestem?
The one valve that was leaking i relapped and then mounted when testing afterward it did leak even more then i knocked on back of the stem with a plastic hammer and it stopped leaking
not sure what is wrong but mayby it did not seat fully when i realesed the springtensioner .


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 28, 2018, 12:47:09 PM
The crankchaft has also been measured all 4 big end bearing clearance is in spec measured 0.200mm spec is 0.160-0.262mm
then measured with plastigage and all 5 journals had too big oilclearance spec is 0.02-0.044mm .I suspect the readings may be wrong because i discovered that my tourquewrench
might have gone bad it was clicking to early and i didnt get the right torque on the bolts.so i will either try to calibrate the wrench or buy another.
I used the numbers on the crank  211111111 and the numbers on the rear upper crankcase 444?4 to find out what bearings i need but one of the number on the case was unreadable (se pic)
lucky i could see the color on the bearing it is brown all the other bearings is brown and the first jornal is black but not 100 % sure.I then started measuring the rodbearings but i used red plastigage on them but find out that was wrong so i have ordered more green plastigage.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 28, 2018, 12:57:01 PM
I also did a quick runout test of the crankchaft  when it is laying in the outer bearings it had only 0.01mm runout not sure if the method i used to measure it is acurate enough but did not have v blocks


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on November 28, 2018, 04:44:49 PM
Are there any numbers on the crank's counter weights?
I recall years ago someone posted that they did not record the numbers before they sent their crank off to APE to be lightened, and thus, APE shaved off the numbers.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on November 30, 2018, 05:31:05 AM
Are there any numbers on the crank's counter weights?
I recall years ago someone posted that they did not record the numbers before they sent their crank off to APE to be lightened, and thus, APE shaved off the numbers.
Yes i have read that tread APE should have record the numbers .The numbers engraved on the crank is 211111111 i not able to take a pick right now will later.Numbers back on the upper case is 444 ? 4   .


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on December 04, 2018, 09:07:41 AM
The platigage i ordered has arrived so last night i installed the new crankshaft journal bearings and tested them.
All oilclearance measurements is now in spec about 0.038mm i had hoped mayby even better numbers but i guess the
crankshaft journals are a little worn.The spec is 0.020 to 0.044.The clearance is now much better than with the old
bearings that measured around 0.076mm.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on December 04, 2018, 09:31:48 AM
Today the  the oilclearance on the conrodjournals was measured i bought a new tourquewrench yesterday but i think
mayby that one is out of calibration also because i had to use much force to get it clicking on 36NM i have to get
it checked ,it is a cheap wrench i think i have to go for a more expensive one.One thing that im wondering about is that
the manual says nothing about replacing the conrodbolts doesent they stretch?
Anyway i lubed the threads on the bolts as manual says and tourqed them to 36NM wich felt more like 100Nm and it was
hard to apply the force needed an the same time keeping the hole crancase not turning.
I got the measurements and they are on the limit to be worn out they meaured 0.038mm and the spec is 0.017 to
0.040mm so i will replace the bearings.All bearings color is brown .and all conrods are marked 4


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on December 10, 2018, 09:51:31 AM
Have done some more work on cylhead i started sanding with a large flat laminated piece .It had some sinkmarks from the old headgasket that i wanted to remove.
I wetsanded in 4 stages with first 320grit  then 500grit and 800grit and finished with 1000grit .I used a paintmarker and drawed parallel lines over the hole surface between each step many times  to keep control  how even the sanding was .The surface is flat when i test it with feeleblade but im not sure if its smooth enough .Didnt want to use finer grit because then it maybe get to glossy?? There are some scratches visible when looking at hi res photo but they cant bee felt with fingernail.Is this good or do i go over some more to remove the last scratches? and make a mirror finish?

And starting to think i mayby have to replace the new valvestemseals on the three valves i had to relap are they destroyed by the lapping?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 04, 2019, 09:35:56 AM
New year and new uppdate and a happy new year to all fj riders!
Been waiting for connection rod bearings to arrive i got them now and while waiting on the bearings i done
some polishing to the alu on the engine covers next will be black engine paint on them.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 04, 2019, 09:42:41 AM
Also have recieved a used oilpump from ebay that i first was planning on taking the splined axle from and use in
the one i had in the engine who had broken splines.I measured the one i had in engine before and did find it was
still usable, but when i now dismantled it further i found lots of deep scratches and dents from something that has
got sucked in and made a mess.Randy or Robert mention earlier that mayby my clutch exploded and that is why the
lower crancase is welded.I guess that how the splines on the oilpump broke off and got in the pump.
I ended up using the oilpump from ebay as after measuring it its in good condition.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 04, 2019, 09:46:46 AM
Some work been done on the starterclutch .Replaced the rubberdampers the old ones was hard as bone and a little
cracked.I would have liked to replace the 2nd idler gear as it seems that the innerbrass collar is a little worn
there is a little slack/play when i put the collar inside and wiggle but the gear is very expensive so i think i
just replace the bearing and collar .I never had any problems with the starterclutch.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 04, 2019, 09:51:37 AM
Then it was time for connecting rod bearings again.i measured all new bearings again with plastigage and at first
i was a little disapointed with the measurements as it was almost the same as with old bearings.I measured them in
my cellar and its freezing cold there so i thinked mayby i got better readings if i carry the crank inside at room
temprature.I did and  measured the day after and the readings was a little better.See pics. Im still a little unsure
if i can use the bearings since the measurements
is so close to limit the measurements is cyl-1 ca 0.037 cyl-2 ca 0.035 cyl-3 ca 0.038 and cyl-4 0.036
The spec is 0.017 to 0.040mm I used brown bearings as the numbers on the crank and crankcase sayd.
Does anyone know what bearingcolor that will make the oilclearances tighter? i mean color on thicker bearings?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 04, 2019, 09:55:33 AM
Found this guy sitting on the crank mayby it was he who once blow up the clutchbasket  :biggrin: Happy New Year!


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 15, 2019, 03:50:07 AM
uppdate
yesterday i started the work of honing the cylinders.I have not done this before so i can only try to replicate
what i have read about it.I bought a cheap honingtool it has 280 grit stones on it.
I used wd-40 as honing oil.i honed the cylinders for about 2-3 minutes each with the drill at slow speed moving in
and out trying to get a 45 degre pattern on the scratches.I notised there is a grove on top of the cylinders from
the pistonrings .I dont know if i have to hone more so they go away or if its ok to leave them?
If i remove the groves i think the hole bore diameter is going to be out of spec and the piston to cylinderwall
clearance go out of spec.
I washed very carefully with soapy water 3 times to get them clean but then it rusted in minutes afterwards :shok: so now trying to clean out the rust with wd40 :dash2:
What shall i do now is the scratches to deep so i mayby have to hone some more with finer grit stones?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: CutterBill on January 15, 2019, 07:06:45 AM
Old Rider...
1. WD40 is a lousy honing oil. Next time, try using ATF (any cheap brand will do.)
2. Those rigid stone hones are ok, but the Flex-Hone (bottle brush) style is much better. Expensive though.
3. Your crosshatch pattern looks pretty good. Honest, it's not all that critical; something close to 45-degrees is fine. There is a bit of a learned technique for honing a cylinder by hand; helps if you have seen someone do it. Having done 100's of cylinders, I've got a rhythm... balancing drill motor speed vs. stroking speed. And it's really a 2-man job; one runs the drill while the other squirts the ATF (I use a large pump type oil can.) You want to flood the cylinder while you're honing. Do this inside a cardboard box to catch the mess.
4. That's not a "groove" at the top of the cylinder; it's a ridge. That is the original bore where piston rings never go. There are special tools (ridge reamer) that cut away that ridge but it's really not needed in your case. Below that ridge where the true wear takes place. If there is a significant ridge, that means that the cylinder is worn.
5. As you have discovered, it's not a good idea to clean the cylinder with water. Use lacquer thinner (gasoline if you're broke) and white paper towels. Scrub out the cylinder and oil it.
6. To get the rust out of your cylinders, staple some maroon scotchbrite to a wooden dowel. Chuck up in your drill and scrub out the rust. Or just lightly hone it again. Clean with lacquer thinner/oil.
Bill


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ribbert on January 15, 2019, 07:16:44 AM
Old Rider...
1. WD40 is a lousy honing oil. Next time, try using ATF (any cheap brand will do.)
2. Those rigid stone hones are ok, but the Flex-Hone (bottle brush) style is much better. Expensive though.
3. Your crosshatch pattern looks pretty good. Honest, it's not all that critical; something close to 45-degrees is fine. There is a bit of a learned technique for honing a cylinder by hand; helps if you have seen someone do it. Having done 100's of cylinders, I've got a rhythm... balancing drill motor speed vs. stroking speed. And it's really a 2-man job; one runs the drill while the other squirts the ATF (I use a large pump type oil can.) You want to flood the cylinder while you're honing. Do this inside a cardboard box to catch the mess.
4. That's not a "groove" at the top of the cylinder; it's a ridge. That is the original bore where piston rings never go. There are special tools (ridge reamer) that cut away that ridge but it's really not needed in your case. Below that ridge where the true wear takes place. If there is a significant ridge, that means that the cylinder is worn.
5. As you have discovered, it's not a good idea to clean the cylinder with water. Use lacquer thinner (gasoline if you're broke) and white paper towels. Scrub out the cylinder and oil it.
6. To get the rust out of your cylinders, staple some maroon scotchbrite to a wooden dowel. Chuck up in your drill and scrub out the rust. Or just lightly hone it again. Clean with lacquer thinner/oil.
Bill


 :good2: :good2:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 16, 2019, 05:03:11 AM
Old Rider...
1. WD40 is a lousy honing oil. Next time, try using ATF (any cheap brand will do.)
2. Those rigid stone hones are ok, but the Flex-Hone (bottle brush) style is much better. Expensive though.
3. Your crosshatch pattern looks pretty good. Honest, it's not all that critical; something close to 45-degrees is fine. There is a bit of a learned technique for honing a cylinder by hand; helps if you have seen someone do it. Having done 100's of cylinders, I've got a rhythm... balancing drill motor speed vs. stroking speed. And it's really a 2-man job; one runs the drill while the other squirts the ATF (I use a large pump type oil can.) You want to flood the cylinder while you're honing. Do this inside a cardboard box to catch the mess.
4. That's not a "groove" at the top of the cylinder; it's a ridge. That is the original bore where piston rings never go. There are special tools (ridge reamer) that cut away that ridge but it's really not needed in your case. Below that ridge where the true wear takes place. If there is a significant ridge, that means that the cylinder is worn.
5. As you have discovered, it's not a good idea to clean the cylinder with water. Use lacquer thinner (gasoline if you're broke) and white paper towels. Scrub out the cylinder and oil it.
6. To get the rust out of your cylinders, staple some maroon scotchbrite to a wooden dowel. Chuck up in your drill and scrub out the rust. Or just lightly hone it again. Clean with lacquer thinner/oil.
Bill

Hi Bill God to know there are more skilled people following my rebuild thread so i hopefully  dont make this rebuild a highway to hell  :biggrin:
1 i did read something about atf oil as honing oil i had a big can of wd40 so i used that.
2 i was surpriced how fast the stones was worned down they are now worn out after just about 3 minutes in each cylinder :shok:  About the flexhone bottlebrush: if the cylinder have
some ovalshape doesent the flexhone just follow that eggshape and not correct them like a rigid stone would?
3 ok but how to know if the surface is to rugh im thinking i mayby have to go over with finer grit ?
4 god to know also when i inserted new pistonrings in cylinders and measured endgap they all measure 0.20 mm wich is the smallest in spec opening .It shows that the cylinder is very little worn i think.
5 i read several places that it had to be washed with both solvent and then washed with soapywater and brush to be sure the abrasive is gone .I was surpriced how fast the cylinders rusted it was like i washed them then turned away for 2 minutes to clean the bucket i used then i turned back to take a look  they where brown with rust already :shok:
6 okat but doesent the scotch brite destroy the honepattern ? i think i just hone a little more mayby?



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on January 16, 2019, 09:18:58 AM
1 i did read something about atf oil as honing oil i had a big can of wd40 so i used that. Dont skimp now...
2 i was surpriced how fast the stones was worned down they are now worn out after just about 3 minutes in each cylinder.  About the flexhone bottlebrush: if the cylinder have
some ovalshape doesent the flexhone just follow that eggshape and not correct them like a rigid stone would? Yes, flex hones are great for breaking the glaze, but not for truing the bores.
3 ok but how to know if the surface is to rugh im thinking i mayby have to go over with finer grit ? Yes
4 god to know also when i inserted new pistonrings in cylinders and measured endgap they all measure 0.20 mm wich is the smallest in spec opening .It shows that the cylinder is very little worn i think.
5 i read several places that it had to be washed with both solvent and then washed with soapywater and brush to be sure the abrasive is gone .I was surpriced how fast the cylinders rusted it was like i washed them then turned away for 2 minutes to clean the bucket i used then i turned back to take a look  they where brown with rust already. Dry and clean the cylinder first, the bucket can wait (see below)
6 okat but doesent the scotch brite destroy the honepattern ? i think i just hone a little more mayby?

You have done everything up to this point very methodically and thoroughly, please don't stop now. I have noted many micrometers and gauges in your posts. You really need a dial bore gauge to ensure you have the proper bore diameter.

There are many cheap options that work great for light use, here is one example: 50-160mm Bore Gauge (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dial-Bore-Gauge-50-160mm-Engine-Cylinder-Indicator-Measuring-Gauge-0-01mm-w-box/302577745075?hash=item467309fcb3:g:Wp4AAOSw1JVaOxyd:rk:5:pf:0)

As Bill already mentioned, the groove at the top of the cylinder you are seeing is the transition point for the top ring at the TDC rock of the piston. That really needs to be gone, but you cannot accomplish this properly with the flex hone you are using. You need to be honing with a rigid stone hone. In my experience there is not a ridge there that a ridge reamer can remove without making the upper cylinder excessively oversize.

The rigid hone does a couple of things when honing your cylinder.
1) It keeps the stones square and reduces cylinder taper compared to a center pivot hone you used.
2) The hone will remove material from the bore evenly to remove that upper groove and keep the same bore diameter during the honing process.
3) There is a wiper stone that cleans the hone grit away from the next stone as it rotates. That is important so the next stone doesn't run over the stone material and grind it into the bore causing an unwanted finish.

Again, here is cheap option of a rigid hone: 62 to 88mm Honing Machine + 4 Set of Honing (https://www.ebay.com/i/263878340929?rt=nc&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D20160908110712%26meid%3D58403a55b727435aa1d67d7ac904f319%26pid%3D100677%26rk%3D15%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D262963201429%26itm%3D263878340929)

Now, once you get the upper grooves out of the bores, you need to finish hone. Yes, the 280 you used is too course, plus the hone was running over its own grit with the poorest choice for honing lubricant. So, your bore finish is going to have deep grooves making the finish even more course.

I use this honing oil: Cylinder Hone Oil (https://www.crcindustries.com/products/honing-cutting-oil-1-gal-SL2523.html)

Now, onto washing cylinders that is almost like asking what oil to use.... :bomb:

I wash all of my cylinders in Hot, really hot water and heavy detergent soap. I use a series of brushes from course to fine and well as a couple of clothes. I was told by an old time engine builder more than 30 years ago, solvents, usually used cold will clean the surface but embed the hone oil/grit deep in the cross hatch. The second thing with solvent, if you are going to use it, it must be clean. If the solvent is contaminated with other oils, then you are not going to get everything clean.

When I get done washing the cylinders, they do have a light surface rust after blowing them dry. I then use ATF on lint free, white disposable towels to wipe the cylinders. I wipe them using new towels after every wipe through until I get no color other than the red of the ATF on the towel. I then put a heavy coat of ATF on the bores, put the cylinder in a plastic bag with desiccant packs to absorb moisture until the cylinder is ready to be installed.

Back to your cylinders, once you get them measured at the largest diameter (the groove) you will know if you are able to use the stock pistons or need to step up to over-sized pistons & rings.

Keep up the good work and the detailed posting of the build, you are doing great.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: X-Ray on January 16, 2019, 05:23:44 PM
This is a fascinating work in progress that I am following with great interest. I won’t ever be pulling down my FJ engines to do this sort of work, ( I’ll leave that to the experts ), but watching the steps involved helps me understand the process a lot more,


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 17, 2019, 06:49:54 AM
 Randy thanks for helping with your professional advice
When i now understand a little better about the ridge on top of the cylinders i realice that there is more work to
do on them and get the cylinders more accurate measured .When i took a closer look at the ridge there is 2 of them from both
ring 1 and 2.I read some more about the ridge and if its deep it can brake the new piston ring and ringland when new
rings is installed
Im hoping that i get away with only a hone and reuse the old pistons ,but that's mayby too optimistic now.To bad i
already have bought new pistonrings..
Now im trying to decide  if i shall go to a engineworkshop to get them do the hone/bore job or if i buy more tools
and do it my self.
I have to find out how much the job is going to cost.First thing now im going to buy a dialbore gauge to get more
accurate
measurement of the piston to wall clearances and cylinders taper and oval shape.If the cylinders are totally out
of spec to big inside the ridgearea so i have to do a rebore and new pistons i think that is going to be so
expensive that its better to buy a finished
big block kit with pistons and pistonrings included.
Thanks for many good advice


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 17, 2019, 06:53:38 AM
This is a fascinating work in progress that I am following with great interest. I won’t ever be pulling down my FJ engines to do this sort of work, ( I’ll leave that to the experts ), but watching the steps involved helps me understand the process a lot more,

Hi X-Ray
Good to hear that you are interested in the tread.I guess the purpose of the tread is that i can get help and advice
from experts so the chances i dont screw up totally increases .At some point I was thinking the tread was boring
with no interests, but im sure someone can get something useful out of it.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ribbert on January 17, 2019, 07:47:30 AM
At this stage, I would recommend taking the barrels to an automotive machine shop, there is a special tool for removing the ridge. I would get them to do that and measure the cylinders while they're at it. They will not charge you much for the job and it saves you buying more tools you'll never use again. The measuring will only take a few minutes and you can take advantage of their experience to get an opinion on re using your pistons. It also eliminates the risk of doing some unintended damage while trying to selectively remove the ridge with the hone.
I know you like doing it all yourself but this one job I think is better sent out.

One of the hallmarks of a great tradesman is knowing at what point a job is better done by someone else, someone who is expert in that particular area and someone specifically tooled up for it.

I'll leave you with the forum experts for further commentary.

Noel


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 17, 2019, 10:16:41 AM
At this stage, I would recommend taking the barrels to an automotive machine shop, there is a special tool for removing the ridge. I would get them to do that and measure the cylinders while they're at it. They will not charge you much for the job and it saves you buying more tools you'll never use again. The measuring will only take a few minutes and you can take advantage of their experience to get an opinion on re using your pistons. It also eliminates the risk of doing some unintended damage while trying to selectively remove the ridge with the hone.
I know you like doing it all yourself but this one job I think is better sent out.

One of the hallmarks of a great tradesman is knowing at what point a job is better done by someone else, someone who is expert in that particular area and someone specifically tooled up for it.

I'll leave you with the forum experts for further commentary.

Noel

Noel thanks for your advice i know you are in the top leauge mechanic department so good to know you are watching.
and thanks for the tip you gave earlier about pouring the gasoline into the ports when checking valves for leaks.
If I had not tested that and only done it by testing with fluid into combustionchamber like i did first i would have
had leaky valves when reasebly the head
I guess your right about letting a professional automotive shop take care of the cylinders now,but
first im going to buy the boregauge tool since it is cheap  and check a little what the diameter  is inside the
ridge zone if its way out i know if i have to rebore


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Mark Olson on January 17, 2019, 05:08:49 PM
+1 on checking your cylinder taper and out of round.. you have gone so far into this rebuild it would be a shame it ended up a oil burner.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on January 17, 2019, 06:54:14 PM
At this stage, I would recommend taking the barrels to an automotive machine shop, there is a special tool for removing the ridge. I would get them to do that and measure the cylinders while they're at it. They will not charge you much for the job and it saves you buying more tools you'll never use again. The measuring will only take a few minutes and you can take advantage of their experience to get an opinion on re using your pistons. It also eliminates the risk of doing some unintended damage while trying to selectively remove the ridge with the hone.
I know you like doing it all yourself but this one job I think is better sent out.

One of the hallmarks of a great tradesman is knowing at what point a job is better done by someone else, someone who is expert in that particular area and someone specifically tooled up for it.

I'll leave you with the forum experts for further commentary.

Noel

+1 :good2:

Frankly, I only hone single cylinder repairs anymore. For complete engine builds, the machine shop bores the cylinder prior to finish honing. They also deck the head gasket surface when doing the work.

The use of the boring bar, automatic cylinder hone and surfacing machine provide a more consistent job.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 21, 2019, 04:03:05 AM
Update
Have not done much waiting on the boredial gauge i ordered . Have started benchsynking the valves  but not finished with that job because i needed some more halfsize  shims .I have ordered the shims from RPM they shipped them very fast as usual ,but the postage here i Norway is slow.

I have found one interesting thing about different brands of plastigauge tough that i want to share.
 Earlier i replaced all bearingshells and measured all oilclearances on camshaftjournals- crankshaft journals and conectingrod journals. I have used  green plastigage The measurements showed that the oilclearances where close to the limit of worn out  especially the 4 connecting rod journals which was about 0.036mm to 0.038mm (spec is 0.017 to 0.040mm ) .
since the measurements was so close to worn out limit   i was thinking i had to buy another complete set bearingshells that was thicker (undersized )  to get more in the middle of the range of specs ,but then i knew there was another brand plastigauge  that i havent used and measured in the range i needed .It is red in color britishmade and measures in range from 0.025mm to 0.175mm .I have another set of red plastigauge named sealed power but that can not be used because the range of that is 0.051mm to 0.152mm
Anyway i tough i give it a try before buying a new set thicker bearingshells so I ordered the red Britishmade plastigauge 0.025-0.175mm and received it yesterday.
I measured the nr 4 connecting rod journal and was happy to see that the measurement was much better than with the green plastigauge (se pick) i used earlier.I think the measure now is more like 0.028 to 0.030mm instead of 0.037mm i got with green  plastigauge spec is 0.017mm to 0.40mm .
I think the latest red plastigauge i used is more accurate than the green because it gets a wider crushed area that is easier to measure with the paperruler.
I'm not going to remeasure the other journals as  they most likely is better in spec when measured with the latest red plastigauge than with the green plasigage i used earlier.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 22, 2019, 11:03:49 AM
update on cylhead
i have now bench shimmed the valves. Thanks to Randy for the advice doing that.At first i did not see the point with
benchshimming thinking it was not so important  , but then i discovered that i needed 9 new shims even i had 8 shims
extra .If i had waited with the valveadjustment until i had the engine back in the bike i had to wait a couple of
weeks to get the shims and if there had been more serious stuff going on like running out of shim size the valves
would had to be taken out again including take the head off again and a new headgasket.. the valves would then had
to be  grinded shorter at a professional workshop.
Like Randy mentioned earlier when benchshimming the valves N E V E R  install both cams at the same time.If you do you
will very easy bend some valves!!.
I made a rig of 2 woodplanks dimension 2" x 3" i used long woodscrews in the outer cylinderstud holes and screwed
down into the wood.That is to protect the valves so they dont get bendt when rotating the cam and also protect the
headgasket surface.
I also have for first time used a valve shim bucket tool at first it was a little fiddely get it to work but after
some it worked okay.I have to confess that i earlier used a ziptie down the plughole to hold the valve open to get
the shim out.It works but i have always been a little worried that it may bend the valves.But none of my valves was
bendt when measuring them earlier.The bad thing using a ziptie is that it may srape off carbon deposits from the
valve edge and then that deposit may get jammed in the valve doing bad stuff so im not using the ziptie method any
more.
Also i have done some more with the starterclutch replaced the steelballs and the collar in idlergear.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 23, 2019, 08:11:45 AM
Today i installed the pistonrings and new wristpin circlips on one side.
First i planned to install the rings just by hand by rolling them on .I found out that that is a bad idea and it will ruin the shape of the ring and make scoring marks in the edge of the ringland.The oil rings can be installed by rolling them on it is infact recomended to install oilrings that way,but not the compressionrings.
I had to buy a new pistonring plier from ebay I have one but that can not be used on this pistons.
It is not possible to fit the compression rings wrong as the nr 2 ring is to thick to mount in the number 1 ring grove. However it is possible to forget that the marking on the ring has to point uppwards.
The number 1 ring has no markings so it can be installed both ways.
I tested if i could make a pistonringcompressor to ease intallation of pistons into the barrels.I made it from
clear plastic from bottle and a big ziptie around it.The plan was that all four pistons was going to have the homemade ringcompressor on then just slide like a dream in to the cylinderbores.  :dash2: that is not going to happend
i did a test on one cylinder se pics and it was no way i could get that piston to go inside the cylinder even it was oiled .I did not want to break anything so stopped trying.I then use a steel pistoncompressor tool and the piston did slide easy in.The problem with using the steel compressor is that it is to high When placed between crankcase and cylinders.
 instead will try to install all four pistons one by one into cylinders with one wristpinclip and wristpin half way thru then let them stick out a little so that i can get the conectingrod inside piston and mount the wristpin on other side.
Or i try to cut some steelcompressor sheet into slimmer strips and use ziptie to compress the rings.
Now im waiting get some measuringtools in the post so i can measure the cylinderbores more accurate .
I spoke with a machine shoop yesterday and the price of honing wasent bad ,but he could not guarate that the bore
was going to be to big to use same pistons.I did not have the cylinders with me so he could measure.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 25, 2019, 04:17:50 AM
Today i been fiddling a little with the starterclutch / alternator axle and bearings.
Replaced the oilseal new is brown and new O-ring on the bearing outside.The New O-ring seems thinner than the old.
I have ordered a bearing some time ago not from RPM but another place .When i recieved  the bearing it has wrong partnumber :unknown:.Its the bearing that is embedded in upper crankcase at the end of the starterclutch axle.I dont know if i can use it have to find out.
I discovered some bad scratches and dent in the oiljetnozzle.It is the innside of the starterchain the toothed side that has hammered the nozzle.
I think that will explain  a little of the bad noises i had.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 25, 2019, 10:16:08 AM
Oil jet damage from a starter chain? So that’s the cause of that noise in our FJ’s?
Starter chain noise is very very common.

Starter chains are gonna stretch...no getting around that, however, I wonder if that oil jet could be “modified” (love that word) to give better clearance ?

Question for Randy: Has Yamaha updated this part? Do the XJR engines use this same oil jet?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Mark Olson on January 25, 2019, 11:45:49 PM
on the piston rings I would suggest using a motorcycle specific ring compressor.. saw some on amazon lately.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 27, 2019, 10:40:23 AM
Carbtime
While the woman in the house is away for the weekend i used the oportunity to start with some carburetorporn no i mean Carburetorcleaning in my livingroom  :yes:  .
the carbs was drained for the winter storage earlier so it was not so bad gas smell.
I started by taking the bowls off but the screws didnt want to come out so i had to drill and use a extractor tool
on some of them.I also had to use a torch flame on some screws   not the best combination when working on carburetors  :wacko1:
When i got the bowls off they loocked good with only some dry rustdirt that was easy to clean.
The rust comes from the gastank before i remowed the rust with mauratic acid inside it and sealed it 2 years ago.
I then started taking off the vakumlids and of cource many of  the screws on them had to be drilled and extracted. :dash1:
Also the screws inside carburetor had to use extractor tool .


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 27, 2019, 10:47:01 AM
 carbporn continues when i got inside i started screwing. I remowed all jets and stacked them in a eggbox to keep the parts orginized.There was a bit of dry rustdust in the jets.I had fun when i dicovered that i must have lost the little O-ring sitting on tip of Mixturescrews.I used 2 hours trying to find it or if it still was inside the carburetors.Then suddely i find it in the eggbox it was like glued to one of the little steel washer so that was 2 hours wasted .
I Took everything outside and sprayed it with carbcleaner in every hole i could find and used a thootbrush to clean up.
Then i took the carbstufff inside again and cleaned second time with some wd 40 and pressurized air and some mild
cleaner fluid.
The Diaphrames looked good only 2 -3 small needle holes i could see .I heard they can be fixed with plastidip i have
some plastidip ,but going to find out more how that is done.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on January 27, 2019, 02:58:57 PM
Nice work mate  :good:

While you’re there, make sure the choke linkages are all tight. A lose link might trick you into thinking you have a blocked choke circuit.

With all the crud in the bowls make sure the little galleries for choke, pilot etc are free of gunk.

You seem very competent so I’m sure you’ve already checked that.

RPM have the stainless Allen set to replace all the buggered screws (cheap as well even when you include postage)

Troyskie


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on January 27, 2019, 03:04:23 PM
Noel knows exactly what happens when you lose a part


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 27, 2019, 03:28:09 PM
Old Rider, I like your easy way to drain your carb bowls. (Hose drains)
What fitting did you use the thread into the bowls?
 I can’t find a metric hose fitting with the correct thread pitch as the oem drain bowl screws.
I’m thinking I’ll just have to drill and tap my bowls to get the correct threads for the hose fitting to work.
Really don’t want to....

I like the idea of finding the drain hose, opening a valve and draining my bowls, easy peesey.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: RPM - Robert on January 27, 2019, 04:48:36 PM
Old Rider, I like your easy way to drain your carb bowls. (Hose drains)
What fitting did you use the thread into the bowls?
 I can’t find a metric hose fitting with the correct thread pitch as the oem drain bowl screws.
I’m thinking I’ll just have to drill and tap my bowls to get the correct threads for the hose fitting to work.
Really don’t want to....

I like the idea of finding the drain hose, opening a valve and draining my bowls, easy peesey.


Pat...why...?

Just slip your drain hose on the nipple on the bottom of the bowls I marked and open the screw. I think the fuel is going to leak out of the hole once the drain nipple is turned with the fitting O R has



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 27, 2019, 06:17:44 PM
Hi Robert, yes, I know. I’m just lazy in getting my Phillips up in there to open the 4 drain screws, then, after draining, making sure the 4 screws are tight with no drips.

We all know that fuel dripping under there is not a good idea...right?

Just thinking of an easier softer way to open the drains.

If I were to drill out and tap the screw threads to install a hose barb, I would have to plug the drain port.

Robert, how much $$ for 4 used float bowls?



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 28, 2019, 06:23:49 AM
Nice work mate  :good:

While you’re there, make sure the choke linkages are all tight. A lose link might trick you into thinking you have a blocked choke circuit.

With all the crud in the bowls make sure the little galleries for choke, pilot etc are free of gunk.

You seem very competent so I’m sure you’ve already checked that.

RPM have the stainless Allen set to replace all the buggered screws (cheap as well even when you include postage)

Troyskie

I checked the linkages if you mean the ones that pull on the choke plungers and they are thight .What is not so good is that the end of the chokeplungers is worn very thin and should be replaced they cost
about 50usd each so i think its a little expensive i might try to reinforce them another way.
I have sprayed all the passages i could find with carbleaner and compressed air
Thank for telling me about the carburetor screws and o-ring kit  i will order that for sure just trying to think of something more i need in the same matter.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 28, 2019, 06:32:48 AM
Noel knows exactly what happens when you lose a part

Troyskie
 :lol: thats seems like a 3 to 60 chance to find it.Also remember the carpetmonster .


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 28, 2019, 06:49:08 AM
Old Rider, I like your easy way to drain your carb bowls. (Hose drains)
What fitting did you use the thread into the bowls?
 I can’t find a metric hose fitting with the correct thread pitch as the oem drain bowl screws.
I’m thinking I’ll just have to drill and tap my bowls to get the correct threads for the hose fitting to work.
Really don’t want to....

I like the idea of finding the drain hose, opening a valve and draining my bowls, easy peesey.

Hi Pat
Those hose fittings i think came with the Dial-a-jet kit that is installed but not sure because it was installed when i got the bike.It Is very easy to emty the carbs just disconnect the hose at the upper fitting
and drain i used a white cloth to drain in and there was alot of rust coming out the first times i drained them because there was rust in the tank at that time.I Wanted to change the thin black fuelhoses that was installed before se pick and tryed with some clear ordinary fuel hose that did not work well because it gets very hot in there so after driving with them just some weeks they turned into hard brown plastic that could have cracked so i throw them away .I them found the yellow hoses wich is special silicone i think and they can withstand the heat much better .I also use a fibreglass heatshield sleve outsde the hoses now.

Rolf


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on January 28, 2019, 07:12:57 AM
Some days ago i recieved the dialboregauge and a new micrometer so i can measure the bore size ,pistonclearance ,taper and out of round more accurate .I have already measured them with other methods.
I have to confess this is a little harder than i first thought but after watching this youtube video im getting better at it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLzMQtJAljg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLzMQtJAljg)
I have measured a few times but will do some more measuring and post results so far it looks good not over out of round or taper ina inside margin with piston clearance.But it has to be honed more because of
the ridge on top of cylinders .The strange thing is that so far it seems the ridgearea  is almost more narrow smaller diametre ?? i have to check more.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ribbert on January 28, 2019, 08:00:19 AM

.....The strange thing is that so far it seems the ridgearea  is almost more narrow smaller diametre ??

That's because it is! (wear makes the cylinder wider)

Noel


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on January 28, 2019, 08:38:44 AM
Old Rider, I like your easy way to drain your carb bowls. (Hose drains)
What fitting did you use the thread into the bowls?
Hi Pat
Those hose fittings i think came with the Dial-a-jet kit that is installed but not sure because it was installed when i got the bike.It Is very easy to emty the carbs just disconnect the hose at the upper fitting
and drain...

Rolf

The Dial-a-jet kit fittings at the bottom of the bowl are open all of the time. The black box added onto the into manifolds have a metered vacuum leak that also draws additional fuel from the fitting & hoses and adds it to the air/fuel mixture after the carbs.

Long story short, those bowl nipples cannot be used as drain screws as they are an open hole.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on January 28, 2019, 09:05:16 AM
I discovered some bad scratches and dent in the oil jet nozzle. It is the inside of the starter chain the toothed side that has hammered the nozzle.


Rolf, I just look at the starter nozzle photos and that is not very bad damage compare to others I have seen. Yes the chain gets enough slack to bounce around and contact the starter nozzle.

At some point (2006-2008ish) in the XJR1300 life span of the engine Yamaha address hard starting cranking issues specifically related to the EFI models. They changed the tooth count of the starter clutch reducing it by one tooth. That increased the torque on the crankshaft to help hard starting issues. That in turn required a shorter starter drive chain. The stock nozzle is 39mm long and the replacement is 21mm long.

(http://i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad101/Portsmouth2010/YamahaRecall.jpg) (http://s926.photobucket.com/user/Portsmouth2010/media/YamahaRecall.jpg.html)

The smaller diameter of the start drive gear and small chain meant the chain was now much closer. That meant as soon as the chain stretched, the chain would contact the nozzle. After many, many nozzle failure where it would get torn off and caught in the chain, with the result being a broken chain. Yamaha issues a recall and replacement nozzle.

I have both nozzles in stock, I have used a bunch in my race engine builds where we see the most chain stretch.

Randy - RPM



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 28, 2019, 12:00:13 PM
Old Rider, I like your easy way to drain your carb bowls. (Hose drains)
What fitting did you use the thread into the bowls?
....Long story short, those bowl nipples cannot be used as drain screws as they are an open hole.
Randy - RPM

Huh? The bowl nipples get sealed.
The drain screw is removed and screw port becomes a hose barb connected to a drain hose.
The only drawback is if I need to check the fuel level. I’m not sure if the fuel level in the gauge will change if I draw the fuel from the hose barb instead of the lower nipple.

Randy, thanks for the update on the starter chain oil jet.
 Good to hear the new XJR oil jet is backward compatible to our older FJ engines. Is it plug and play or is there any special machining involved to fit the new jet?

Cheers


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on January 28, 2019, 08:55:04 PM
Huh? The bowl nipples get sealed.
The drain screw is removed and screw port becomes a hose barb connected to a drain hose.
The only drawback is if I need to check the fuel level. I’m not sure if the fuel level in the gauge will change if I draw the fuel from the hose barb instead of the lower nipple.

Randy, thanks for the update on the starter chain oil jet.
 Good to hear the new XJR oil jet is backward compatible to our older FJ engines. Is it plug and play or is there any special machining involved to fit the new jet?

Cheers

We're getting a little off topic...

The replacement drain screw seals the factory drain on the bottom and let's the flow out through the hollow center.

The float level will be exactly the same regardless of which orifice the fuel flows from.

The replacement nozzle slips right in place of the original nozzle, no modifications required.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 28, 2019, 11:44:41 PM

We're getting a little off topic...
The replacement nozzle slips right in place of the original nozzle, no modifications required.

Randy - RPM

Thanks again.... it’s probably a good thing I asked the question huh?

 Gives Rolf an option to upgrade and it educates the rest of us at the same time....

Why is that starter chain making that god awful noise?  Now we know.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 03, 2019, 06:37:21 AM
Small update
Thank Randy for the information on the XJR nozzle jet .
I have now measured the cylinders and pistons many times with a new micrometer and bore dialgauge trying to get a overview of what i got.It took a while to get used to the bore dialgauge and the process of getting the measurements accurate. .I decided to try and hone just a little more to remove the ridge in cylinders  because the diameter of cylinders was  in spec the spec is 76.96 to 77.02 mm.Max limit is 77.10 mm. . The ridge  was very easy to remove it only required a little more honing.
The cylinders now are just on the limit when it comes to out of round and taper. I dont know if i can get away with only
new rings witch i already have bought and mounted on the old pistons as i planned to reuse or if i have to do a rebore and buy overzised  pistons and rings .The main problem now is the piston to cylinderwall clearances.it does not look good.The spec is 0.3 to 0.5mm and max limit is 0.10mm.When i measure the clearance i get
cyl 1   0.08mm  cyl 2 0.10mm cyl 3 0.10mm   cyl 4 0.13mm .
I measured the clearance by first measure the piston 2 mm up on the skirt with micrometer then set the bore dialgauge
in the micrometer and zeroing and then put it in the bore and read the clearance.
I found my pistons to be a little small in diameter they measure cyl 1 76.933  cyl 2 76.926  cyl 3 76.929
cyl 4 76.929 mm  the spec is 76.92mm to 76.98mm .  so I'm thinking that if i can get some larger pistons measuring in the upper range of spec 76.98 i would get the clearances into spec or at least inside max limit 0.10mm .

I now got some options
1 Buy oversized pistons and rings and do a re bore
2 Buy normal size pistons used or new that got bigger measurement at the pistonskirts
3 buy a bigbore kit with both cylinders and pistons
4 use the pistons i got  and live with the on limit piston clearance
How important is the piston clearance in a Fj engine?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 03, 2019, 07:35:56 AM
I forgot another option that is piston coating to get better piston to wall clearances.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on February 03, 2019, 10:20:37 AM
Swap the #1 and #4 pistons and remeasure.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 03, 2019, 11:02:20 AM
Swap the #1 and #4 pistons and remeasure.

I could swap them then they all get in the max limitzone 0.10mm .Not sure how the engine wil perform with that clearance  and how much it has to say if the clearance is big.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on February 03, 2019, 04:43:23 PM
The a few things you will experience with the measurements you have obtained and should be part of your decision.

1) The bore will only get larger with wear and you are at the max limit now.
2) If you have the larger piston clearance, the piston has more ability to "rock" within the bore. This causes excessive ring wear as they are not held square to the cylinder.
3) The ring end gap is only going to grow bigger with the max measurements you have. This will result in two things, loss of compression gasses and difficulty with oil control.
4) If you continued honing with the 280 grit stones to the current size, you still need to finish hone with finer stones. The top ring has a chrome face and can be flaked off if the finish is too course.

You might have couple of other options if you can find a machine shop that still does it and the cost is not too great.

You could have the pistons knurled: https://youtu.be/4uzZYPIGbZE (https://youtu.be/4uzZYPIGbZE)  Then you could fit the bore to the knurled piston size.

If that works out, you could probably use a set of Yamaha FJ1200 .50mm (.020) Oversize Piston Rings (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3A4PU-11605-01) to correct the end gap issue.

I guess you have to evaluate what you want out of this rebuild...

Are you going to be happy if the engine uses oil & smokes or is down on power due with excessive blow-by due to compression leakage?

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 04, 2019, 10:11:34 AM
The a few things you will experience with the measurements you have obtained and should be part of your decision.

1) The bore will only get larger with wear and you are at the max limit now.
2) If you have the larger piston clearance, the piston has more ability to "rock" within the bore. This causes excessive ring wear as they are not held square to the cylinder.
3) The ring end gap is only going to grow bigger with the max measurements you have. This will result in two things, loss of compression gasses and difficulty with oil control.
4) If you continued honing with the 280 grit stones to the current size, you still need to finish hone with finer stones. The top ring has a chrome face and can be flaked off if the finish is too course.

You might have couple of other options if you can find a machine shop that still does it and the cost is not too great.

You could have the pistons knurled: [url]https://youtu.be/4uzZYPIGbZE[/url] ([url]https://youtu.be/4uzZYPIGbZE[/url])  Then you could fit the bore to the knurled piston size.

If that works out, you could probably use a set of Yamaha FJ1200 .50mm (.020) Oversize Piston Rings ([url]http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3A4PU-11605-01[/url]) to correct the end gap issue.

I guess you have to evaluate what you want out of this rebuild...

Are you going to be happy if the engine uses oil & smokes or is down on power due with excessive blow-by due to compression leakage?

Randy - RPM


since i read your post and you mentioned the pistonring endgap i  remeasured again i found that the total cylinder
wear is mayby not  so bad as i first tought.I dismantled the new rings i had on the pistons put them in the
cylinders and checked the endgap. All endgap is inside spec measuring 0.30 to 0.35mm only one ring on cyl 4
was a little over standard size 0.38mm .spec endgap for both first and second ring is 0.20 to 0.30mm max limit is
0.60mm .The old rings was way out measuring from 0.70 to 1.30mm
It does not help that The micrometer i bought seems not to be  accurate i can turn the nimble 2 dots and nothing
happens with the tension on the 75mm calibration stick that it came with so mayby my measuremnte is not so good.
I think that the pistons is worn small in diametre compared to brand new one plus i used that MR muscle on them and
they got black .I then used some fine grit wetsandpaper to get the black stuff off that also did the diametre a little
smaller.I think if i buy new pistons the clearance will be much better.

That knurled piston was strange  doesent that make the piston work almost like a file on the cylinderwall?
.I have  done some more measurement on the piston to cylinderwall clearance with the oldschool feelerblade method that is explained in the haynes manual
It shows that the clearances measured that way is a little smaller, but i dont think that is so accurate as a micrometer with a boredialguide.  :yes:
For example on cylinder 4 who had the greatest clearing 0.13mm  i could bearly fit the 0.10mm blade in and it was thight to drag out.
The other cylinders also got a little better measurement with the feelerblade method.
I would not like if the engine use oil and smoke and down on power  :dash2: i now have to think about the options


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 08, 2019, 12:21:38 PM
Now i im thinking of replacing the cylindersleeves, but not sure if the sleeves i have found can be used .I mean if they just slide right in without doing any machine work to the cylinder to make them fit.Her are a pick of the
sleeves and some data.
REPLACEMENT CYLINDER SLEEVE  ( 4 Pcs )
Brand: LA sleeves 
Name LA sleeves YA-984
77mm 4-Cyl
FJ-1100 4-Valve 1984-1985
FJ-1200 4-Valve 1986-1993
B =Outside Diameter C = Flange (Lip) Diameter D = Flange Thickness E =Overall Length F = Bottom Skirt O.D
B=3.232 / C=3.540 / D=.200 / E=4.370 / F=3.206

If anyone have used sleeves like this or know if they will fit right in please let me know.

Rolf


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on February 08, 2019, 01:47:46 PM
I've no experience re-sleeving, so this is just a guess. Also, I can't find any info on sleeve OD dimensions in my manuals.

However, as you already have the head off you could measure the top flange and the skirt of the sleeves you have. If the measurements are close it might work.

The most cost effective solution I found was to replace the OEM with a Wiseco 1219 set and have the sleeves re-bored to suit. While I was at it I did get the upgraded valve springs. This was all supplied by Randy/Robert with no fuss.

All in all the OEM parts for oversize were more expensive or simply unavailable.

I had the re-bore done by a shop, but did the assembly my self. Very straight forward (after assembling incorrectly about 5 times  :dash2:).


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 09, 2019, 09:53:57 AM
I've no experience re-sleeving, so this is just a guess. Also, I can't find any info on sleeve OD dimensions in my manuals.

However, as you already have the head off you could measure the top flange and the skirt of the sleeves you have. If the measurements are close it might work.

The most cost effective solution I found was to replace the OEM with a Wiseco 1219 set and have the sleeves re-bored to suit. While I was at it I did get the upgraded valve springs. This was all supplied by Randy/Robert with no fuss.

All in all the OEM parts for oversize were more expensive or simply unavailable.

I had the re-bore done by a shop, but did the assembly my self. Very straight forward (after assembling incorrectly about 5 times  :dash2:).


Hi Troyskie many good suggestions i measured the upper flange diameter and the lower sleeve skirt but i had to bee sure of the other measurements before i bought the sleeves and also i was in a hurry because they was on ebay and could get sold before i got them measured Therefore i did some baking in the oven look at my next post (popcorn).Did you replace the pistons with wiseco  and rings? do you remeber what size the wiseco sleeves was before the got bored?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 09, 2019, 10:13:49 AM
I had to find out what the measurements on the cylindersleeves was and to do that they had to come out.
Today  while the woman in the house was out i used the opportunity to do some cylinder baking  in the oven .
I baked the cylinder at 180 degree Celsius for 40 minutes and it did not smell like a steak ,pizza or chocolate kake it smelled much better more like fj1200 cylinders with new paint on combined with gasoline old burned oil high revs and also some good old two stroke exhaust smell strange but i  loved that smell . :biggrin:  When finished cocking i placed them on some wood and a gave the sleeves a light knock ,that was enough to make them just drop out.
All measurements was about the same as the YA-984 LA sleeves  so i bought them.
The inside diameter on the new sleeves is 76.2mm so they have to be adjusted to fit the pistons .I'm not sure if
it is enough to use honing or if it has to be bored to make the bore about 0.05mm  bigger
The old sleeves is just in spec in taper and oval shape .I could have reused them but  the risk of burning oil and blowby is higher than if i bought the new sleeves.
So I'm going to use same standard pistons eather the one i got or mayby a set of almost new pistons i can buy. Then bore or hone the diameter in the new sleeves to fit my pistons.



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on February 09, 2019, 01:51:27 PM
Well done mate. Did the missus ask what's for dinner? :sarcastic:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 10, 2019, 03:15:43 AM
Well done mate. Did the missus ask what's for dinner? :sarcastic:

No when she came home the smell was gone  :good:.Not sure how it will smell when the oven is reheated

When you did your rebuild did you switch both cylinder sleeves and  pistons to wiseco ? And do you know what the diametre of the wiseco sleeves was before bore them?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on February 10, 2019, 03:07:34 PM
No mate, my rebuild was of the budget variety.

The original sleeves were left in, but bored to suit the 1219 Wiseco kit (Pistons & ring set). I did go with the shorter skirt, higher compression pistons.

Kookaloo!


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 18, 2019, 08:10:29 AM
While waiting for the new cylinder sleeves there is not so much happening so i started to clean up the gasket surfaces .
I used both gasket remover and carb cleaner and a plastic scraper but did not get it clean so i then used
1200 grit wetsand paper and a 100% flat piece and wrapped the paper on and lightly sanded off most of the gasket material and marks.

I have received a set of very little used pistons that looks good and measure bigger diameter than my old ones.
They also look smoother on the pistonskirt surface .I think there was some kind of coating that went away when i cleaned the old ones in MR muscle for too long.

with the new used pistons i got the piston to cylinder wall clearances in spec but just at the limit of 0.10mm .The old cylindersleeves is a little oval and have a little taper they are in spec but not sure if the engine had been a oilburner if i used the old sleeves with new pistonrings without boring them and installed bigger pistons.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 18, 2019, 08:14:49 AM
So now the phase of inspection and repair is almost finished i will start to assemble the engine.
Today i have started to replace the starterclutch shaft inner bearing that is ebedded into the uppercrankcase.
The old was not in good shape and made bad noise and was not smooth when swirled .
I was unsure if i got the right bearing because when it arrived it had wrong partnumber on the box.
I had to heat up the area around the bearing to get it out.I  compared the old with the new bearing an they measured the same in all places.I hope that this bearing is same quality as the old.
I heated also before pressing the new bearing in .First i did not know if i had the bearing fully seated because there was a little edge sticking out and i forgot to take a close look at the old before i remowed it.
But when looking at the old bearing there is a dark ring on the outher side so i think the old must have been sticking out a little to


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 18, 2019, 12:18:05 PM
The sleeves arrived this evening  they look good,but i was a little surprised when i measured them i knew they shuld have a innerdiameter 76.20 mm but when measured they ranging from 76.05 to 76.25 some also had taper of 0.03mm not much but i tought that brand new sleeves had better precision on the bores ?.

Im a little dissapointed that the bore wasent bigger so i could just hone the bore to fit the pistons.I have to
leave the cylinders to a machine shop so they can bore them about 0.80mm. I have called 2 shops and it cost about
400 us dollars to bore the sleeves.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on February 18, 2019, 12:54:05 PM
...I have to leave the cylinders to a machine shop so they can bore them about 0.80mm. I have called 2 shops and it cost about 400 us dollars to bore the sleeves.

That isn't a bad price, $100.00 a hole: Press them in, bore them and then finish hone them.

 Hopefully that included the decking the gasket surface. The flange on the sleeves is thicker than the recess in the cylinder block and will have to be machined.

Are you going to heat the cylinder and drop the sleeves back in?

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 18, 2019, 01:47:11 PM
...I have to leave the cylinders to a machine shop so they can bore them about 0.80mm. I have called 2 shops and it cost about 400 us dollars to bore the sleeves.

That isn't a bad price, $100.00 a hole: Press them in, bore them and then finish hone them.

 Hopefully that included the decking the gasket surface. The flange on the sleeves is thicker than the recess in the cylinder block and will have to be machined.

Are you going to heat the cylinder and drop the sleeves back in?

Randy - RPM

I dont know what is normal price on boring so if you say its a okay price i guess it is. I first was thinking that i could hone that 0.80mm but guess that is impossible? I dont think the price include the decking. I got the sleeves very cheep  110 usd for 4 on ebay so that helps.
 
Are you going to heat the cylinder and drop the sleeves back in?
Yes but first i have to wait until the dragon is not home
Im planning on heating the cylinder and cooling the sleeves in the freezer then drop the sleeves in but have now heard that there is a risk of things cracking when doing that so i think i try to heat the cylinderblock and drop the sleeves in without freezing them.I got a 5 to 10 second worktime before the sleeves get locked and have to make rig so they dont creep out when locking up.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 20, 2019, 08:41:56 AM
Today  the new sleeves got installed.First I put the sleeves in the freezer for about 1 hour not sure if its needed to freeze the sleeve but did it because wanted to  increase the chance that they dropped in easy when i took the hot cylinderblock out of owen, and you have to be fast because You only got 5-10 seconds to put all 4 sleeves in.If not working fast enough they will get locked in the block if it cools to much.
I put the cylinderblock in owen while owen was cold and set the temprature at 180 degree Celsius .Then after 45 minutes  moved the sleeves out of freezer and tok off  the plastic bags trying to work superfast it was quite fiddly to remowe the ziplock bags because i had my drivinggloves on  :biggrin:  then it was out with the hot cylinderblock placed it on the rigframe i made earlier so the sleeves can be dropped in . Then put the sleeves in which was easy as they just dropped right in with no pressure.
The sleeves has tendency to creap ut of the bore when cooling down so its needed to place it in a press or something hold them in place. I put the cylinderblock up side down and screwed it down into a old  benchplate with several screws.
After cooling i unscrewed the block an turned it over. The sleeves is sticking just a little bit out its called
protrusion .I did a quick measure with feelerblade and straight edge and it is about 0.10mm .Not sure if that has to be shaved down because this is a aircooled engine with dry sleeves mayby the gasket will absorb that? .I knew that it was going to be a little protrusion because i fitted the sleeves upsidedown into the bore earlier and also measured them.
Yesterday i did a optimistic test with one of the old sleeves too se how much material i could hone out with coarce stones. :biggrin:
that did not work out at all i could get out about 0.40mm but then the taper and out of round was waaaaayyyyyy offf  :shok:
Next now is a visit to the machinechop to get the sleeves bored about 0.80mm  and honed .


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: big r on February 20, 2019, 11:26:03 AM
I would take the pistons with you as well and get them to fit the pistons to the cylinders. That way you are guaranteed to have the proper clearances


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ribbert on February 20, 2019, 06:21:30 PM
I would take the pistons with you as well and get them to fit the pistons to the cylinders. That way you are guaranteed to have the proper clearances


Definitely, the last FJ I had bored to brand new Wiseco pistons and one was smaller than the rest. A good machine shop wouldn't do it without the pistons anyway.

Noel


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ribbert on February 20, 2019, 06:29:08 PM

Yesterday i did a optimistic test with one of the old sleeves too se how much material i could hone out with coarce stones. :biggrin:
that did not work out at all i could get out about 0.40mm but then the taper and out of round was waaaaayyyyyy offf  :shok:
Next now is a visit to the machinechop to get the sleeves bored about 0.80mm  and honed .

Get out of your mind the idea that honing stones are for anything other than honing. I don't even use them for removing the ridge at the top of cylinder, preferring the proper tool.

Noel


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on February 21, 2019, 12:07:42 AM
I think you'd need to check the warp on the head as well. After heating and cooling without the sleeves the block is likely to warp a little. The machine shop can sort that along with the protrusion.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 21, 2019, 08:25:17 AM
I would take the pistons with you as well and get them to fit the pistons to the cylinders. That way you are guaranteed to have the proper clearances

Big r  Today i drove off to the machineshop its a 90 minute drive thanks for reminding me about the pistons i could easyly have forgotten to take the pistons with me   :good:
When arrived at the machineshop they say that mayby they could not bore the sylinders and that they needed some days to figure out if it was possible to bore them. :unknown:
I took the sylinders with me and drove another 60 minutes to another shop the guy at that shop told me it was no problem boring and decking the cylinderblock. :drinks:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 21, 2019, 08:28:37 AM

Yesterday i did a optimistic test with one of the old sleeves too se how much material i could hone out with coarce stones. :biggrin:
that did not work out at all i could get out about 0.40mm but then the taper and out of round was waaaaayyyyyy offf  :shok:
Next now is a visit to the machinechop to get the sleeves bored about 0.80mm  and honed .

Get out of your mind the idea that honing stones are for anything other than honing. I don't even use them for removing the ridge at the top of cylinder, preferring the proper tool.

Noel
Noel
That is exatly what the guy in machineshop told me today he told me that the tool i used was useless. :sarcastic:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 21, 2019, 08:31:29 AM
I think you'd need to check the warp on the head as well. After heating and cooling without the sleeves the block is likely to warp a little. The machine shop can sort that along with the protrusion.

Yes the guy in machineshop told me he always deck shaved the surface when new sleeves are mounted


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on February 22, 2019, 12:12:11 AM
 :good:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 26, 2019, 10:04:27 AM
Uppdate
The machineshop called me and told me it was going to cost more than the first deal... :bomb: the first deal was 350 for boring and 163 for decking He sayd that the new price is 600 to 680 USD it was because he had to bore and then hone the cylinders 2 operations.
I asked about just that when i delivered the cylinders and then he told me that he will bore and hone in one operation . Now he have to bore and hone in 2 operations . :dash1: :smile:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: CutterBill on February 27, 2019, 07:19:48 AM
I don't know your location, but the shops you are dealing with are either crooks or idiots. Possibly both. It is impossible to "bore and hone" in one step.  Perhaps you could go to YouTube and acquaint yourself with what a proper cylinder boring job looks like.
Bill


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on February 27, 2019, 09:57:19 AM
I don't know your location, but the shops you are dealing with are either crooks or idiots. Possibly both. It is impossible to "bore and hone" in one step.  Perhaps you could go to YouTube and acquaint yourself with what a proper cylinder boring job looks like.
Bill
hi Bill i have now fixed my location in profile thanks for reminding me
The first shop i talked to say they had to look at the cylinders and see if they could bore them.Its a long drive from me and when i got there he sayd that he needed to keep the cylinders some days to find out if he could bore.He also never had done cylinders like that and he had to have the cranckcase mounted to connect the machine onto the crank  :scratch_one-s_head: He also told me the cylinder was difficult to measure accurate when hot after boring so needed very long time to cool down .I asked what he meant and if he dident use boringcolant  :shok: sounded strange to me so
i grabbed the cylinders and ran out of the shop :biggrin:
The next shop i called first because its a long drive .He told me he had done many inline four motorcycle cylinders and it was no problem.When i arrived he looked at the cylinders and say no problem. He then gave me the price he wanted for the job included decking. I had study their pricelist on engineworks and the i found a separate price on boring and honing and different types of honing .I asked if the price was right because it was cheaper than what i calculated on the price list. I asked if he bored and then honed ,but he say he was going to bore and hone in one operation
i was surprised .The machine shop is very experiensed and they have ben in operation  since 1954!
Then he called me and told me the price will be higher because he had to to 2 separate operations because the cylinder had so short stroke and it will get wider in the middle .That is okay with me just a little strange he did not know that when he looked at the cylinders.
I was not surprised he called me that the will be more expensive i have experiensed that many times with other carworkshops. It seems most shops think people are idiots that can nothing about cars and bikes so they can easily be fooled.That is why i do most of the work on my cars and bikes i dont trust the cardealers anymore.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 07, 2019, 10:19:23 AM
Today i called the machineshop because they told me the cylinders will be finished in 1 to 2 weeks. Today 2 weeks is gone he say that he had sendt the cylinders to another place to bore them and then
he was going to hone them next week WTF ??. why sent the cylinders away to another place to bore them?? hmm starting to look a little scary

Yesterday i put the piston conrods back on the crank on the bolts i used moly sulfid grease but then i panicked a little thinking that the bolts is stretched and mayby they had to be replaced or they will come loose after they have been torqued first time .I then used a little of blue locktite on the last outer 3 millimeters of threads on the bolts and moly grease furter down on the treads i torqued the bolts to 36NM .On the bearing journals i used assembly lube .
The manual says it is very important that when tourqe the nuts that it is done in a long motion without stopping before 36NM is reached.I had a little trouble doing that because the crank is outside the enginecase and the torque wrench is long. It is also impotant that the stamped Y on the rods are facing to the left and that the stamped letters on the mating joint match 100%.
Another thing ...im going to install the starterchaindamper now and the manual says to use loctite non hardening type? . I have 243 blue witch is medium strong and is tolerant to oil and heat and green 2701
also tolerant to heat but super strong .Im not sure what to use on the damper bolts.There is also some other srews innside engine that should be loctite on like camsprockets bearing retainer ets ets


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ZOA NOM on March 07, 2019, 10:46:48 AM
I prefer to use a stretch gauge to install rod bolts. It's far more accurate than a torque wrench.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 07, 2019, 11:00:24 AM
I prefer to use a stretch gauge to install rod bolts. It's far more accurate than a torque wrench.
i didnt know that it was a tool for that  :shok:   i saw a video on how to use it now on youtube mayby i shall try to measure the bolts with micrometer just to see if they are stretched even.
Anyway the manual does not mention anywhere that the rodbolts on the fj engine has to be replaced so hoping they are good..


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ZOA NOM on March 07, 2019, 12:30:10 PM
I have also used a micrometer to measure the stretch to verify the stretch gauge. Either should work. I saw no difference in measurements. A difference in your lengths after installation may not reveal anything. They are rarely the same length from the factory. It is the stretch that must be the same, which can only be determined by measuring before and after installation.

I haven't rebuilt an FJ motor, but I would hesitate to reinstall factory rod bolts. They are under tension for their lifespan. Removing and reinstalling them may not be advised. I would defer to Randy's experience here. My application is a Porsche race motor, so my concerns are different, admittedly.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on March 10, 2019, 05:47:34 PM
Rolf,

I would not use loctite on the con rod bolts. I don't have a gysm here at home but I know they recommend lubing the threads. No thread lock.

I personally used this thread lube: https://arp-bolts.com/p/arpultratorque.php

I use that lube on the threads and coat the shank of the bolt with clean motor oil to keep it from binding within the rod while torque is applied to the nuts. I torque in two steps, 15 and then 25 ft lbs. I torque slowly and don't stop until the required reading. I have a V block stand to hold the crank while applying the torque.

If it was me, I would remove the rod bolts, ensure all loctite is removed and the lube the bolts properly.

I personally don't use any loctite on any bolts in any of the engines I build. But the green will be fine if you want on the chain guide bolts.

If you are concerned with the rod bolts, we have new ones on the shelf.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 12, 2019, 06:42:56 AM
Im starting to get paranoid over the rodbolts :scratch_one-s_head: and I have now done alot of connetion rod work since last post.That is because i discovered that the rod on cylinder 1 had a bad angliment with the cap on one side.It was a little sharp edge that was catching when feeling with the fingernail in the seemline.
I decided to take the rods off again to angle them better.I then put them back on but this time i used green loctite
2701 on the last 3mm of outer treads and moly sulfid grease on the rest of the bolt.The loctite i used because im reusing the bolts and want to be sure the nut dont come lose.
everything vent okay and i torqued the bolts to 36NM .Then i remeber when lying in bed at night  :blush: :smile: that on one of the bolt when i torqued it  did go past the click point on the wrench. it was like it slipped right after the click was heard .It was mayby a little more than a quarter of a turn.I was not in 100% focus and I was silly enough that i did not write down witch bolt it was. :dash1:
Then the day after i was thinking that the slip i felt was the slip of stripped threads.... :shok: :bomb:
I have 4 rods extra from when i bought the almost new pistons earlier so i decided to do some testing by overthightening the rodbolts and se if the treads got stripped.I did some test with the rods placed on a old bicyle frame tube.
I tryed to increase the tourque by 14Nm  from 36NM to 50 NM what happened was that i never got the wrench to click
and i did not feel any more increased force and i could see the bolt getting longer stretched very much then it snapped even if the pressure in the wrench was the same.
Then did some more test with decreased nm i think it was at 45 the same happened no click just stretching and the snapped
I then decreased to ca 40NM and then the wrench clicked .When i unsrew the bolt i could see it was heavy deformed
it was much thinner from where the nut is sitting .I did not take a picture of that bolt because when i tryed to touque it once more it got stuck just spinning around like stripped treads.  but have some pic of the other snapped bolts and you can see how thin the bolt is where it snapped.
One interesting thing i find was that when tourqueing in a long slow movement the wrech did click but when
going in small steps the wrench did not clich and then the bolts snapped.
Mayby that is why the workshopmanual says it is very important to keep a long movement and dont stop betwen 30 and 36NM .
After that test session i decided that it was no way aroud it i  just had to  take all rods off again  and clean everything down with aceton and steelbrush to get the loctite off again!! to chech the bolts for stretch or stripped treads.
So today that is what i have done cleaned everything down again and inspecting and measuring the bolts .
Every bolt and nut looks 100% fine so im think i reuse them  i just have to be 100% focused . this time
Another thing i found strange is the manual and the haynes says 36 NM or 25 ft.lb when using a Newton to ft.lb converter it is 36 nm = 26.5 ft.lb  ?
on the cyl headnuts the manual says 35 nm or 25 ft.lb  but using a converter it is 25 ft.lb = 33.895 nm ?
Yesterday i mounted the rods again and torqued to 36 NM with only moly grease thinking that everything is fine
But today im starting to get paranoid about reusing the bolts thinking a used bolt snaps and mayby i shall buy  new 100 usd bolts?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ZOA NOM on March 12, 2019, 09:02:59 AM
No way I'd re-use rod bolts multiple times. The metal fatigues with each stretch. I doubt the manufacturer would advise it. You'll never rev that motor again without freaking out.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on March 12, 2019, 03:09:03 PM
I'm confused about the use of Loctite on the end of the rod bolt. 

Are you thinking that will prevent a loose bolt from coming all the way off of the bolt?

If a nut gets that loose then the rod cap is going to be flying off shortly after.  A loose cap will lose its oiling film and the shock loads will cause catastrophic failure.  The only warning will be maybe a few seconds of knocking before what's left of the rod flies out of the front of the engine case.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 13, 2019, 04:34:20 AM
I used the loctite because i wanted extra security on my reused bolts to be sure that the nut did not unsrew .I read that loctite is used in aircraft engine rodbolts for extra security.
Today i have been to Yamaha dealer and the mechanic told me i could reuse the bolts .  I ordered new bolts and nuts anyway so i dont need to think about a rod coming out of
the crancase .So there goes another 120 US dollars out of my wallet :sarcastic:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on March 13, 2019, 06:00:27 AM
Rolf,

Not sure if you were aware, we have rod bolts and nuts in stock.

We actually have almost every engine part on the shelf. Unfortunately many of those parts are not listed on the website.

I'm at home so I'm not sure, but is seems to me $120.00 is expensive. I could be mistaken, it is 4:00am.

I'll have Robert advise you this morning when he gets to the shop.

Secondly, there are two things you need to correct for the new rod bolts.
 
1) DO NOT use loctite.
       Lube the bolts as recommended.

2) You need to do something about your torque wrench.

Please, please follow my advice. I have rebuilt 1000% more of these engines than your Yamaha dealer has even seen in his lifetime.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 13, 2019, 06:13:21 AM
Rolf,

Not sure if you were aware, we have rod bolts and nuts in stock.

We actually have almost every engine part on the shelf. Unfortunately many of those parts are not listed on the website.

I'm at home so I'm not sure, but is seems to me $120.00 is expensive. I could be mistaken, it is 4:00am.

I'll have Robert advise you this morning when he gets to the shop.

Secondly, there are two things you need to correct for the new rod bolts.
 
1) DO NOT use loctite.
       Lube the bolts as recommended.

2) You need to do something about your torque wrench.

Please, please follow my advice. I have rebuilt 1000% more of these engines than your Yamaha dealer has even seen in his lifetime.

Randy - RPM
Thanks for that and
I knew you had the bolts in stock  and that the parts i bought from you usally is half the price the dealer wants, but these bolts was almost same price  so while i was there at the yamaha dealer  desided that i just bought the bolts and nuts  i think with postage the price will be the same.
I will not use loctite im going to only use Molybdenum Disulfide grease on the treads as the manual says when torquing this time.

But now i read that if replacing the rodbolts the rod must be resized ??


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 14, 2019, 12:50:21 PM
Today i got a package from RPM with carburetor screw and o ring set and some other parts .As usual Robert and Randy at RPM sendt the parts faster than lightning so great thanks to them.
Im looking forward to se how the short oiljet nozzle  works.
Today i have started rebuild of the carburetors i did not get finished but got som work done. Im not sure if i going to separate the carbs to replace the o rings on the fuel transfer tubes and oveflow tubes.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Bones on March 14, 2019, 01:21:22 PM
Im not sure if i going to separate the carbs to replace the o rings on the fuel transfer tubes and oveflow tubes.

It’s been drummed into me that if your going to do a job, do it properly. You have all the parts there so why not replace everything, you’ve been very thorough with your work so far.  A local member over here stripped his carbs and found a split O ring on one of those tubes even though it wasn’t leaking before.  Once done then you can say with confidence that your carbs will be trouble free.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on March 14, 2019, 03:35:08 PM
Im not sure if i going to separate the carbs to replace the o rings on the fuel transfer tubes and oveflow tubes.

It’s been drummed into me that if your going to do a job, do it properly. You have all the parts there so why not replace everything, you’ve been very thorough with your work so far.  A local member over here stripped his carbs and found a split O ring on one of those tubes even though it wasn’t leaking before.  Once done then you can say with confidence that your carbs will be trouble free.

Huh?

I am with Bonesy 1,000%
With all the fine work you are doing, all the effort, I can't get my head around why you would say this...


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Firehawk068 on March 15, 2019, 05:14:16 AM
Im not sure if i going to separate the carbs to replace the o rings on the fuel transfer tubes and oveflow tubes.

It’s been drummed into me that if your going to do a job, do it properly. You have all the parts there so why not replace everything, you’ve been very thorough with your work so far.  A local member over here stripped his carbs and found a split O ring on one of those tubes even though it wasn’t leaking before.  Once done then you can say with confidence that your carbs will be trouble free.

Huh?

I am with Bonesy 1,000%
With all the fine work you are doing, all the effort, I can't get my head around why you would say this...

+1
It's really easy to separate the carbs from each other.
Just take a picture of how the choke-rod brackets go on the rod (there is one that is different from the others if i remember correctly)
and take a picture of how the sync-screws/springs go together on the throttle brackets...............that's really the only thing you have to be concerned about.
You should already have the o-rings in the kit you got.  :good2:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 15, 2019, 06:26:16 AM
Okayyyyy guys i hear you and thanks for convincing me to pull them apart i found some crud and dirt in the joints .But now i need help... on the picture i think the red arrow is pointing at the choke innlet air tube ,what i wonder is if it supposed to taken off and replace a o ring in there? It is totally stuck so i dont want to brake anything trying to get ot out.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: RPM - Robert on March 15, 2019, 09:16:38 AM
No. That is pressed into the carb body.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 15, 2019, 10:27:49 AM
No. That is pressed into the carb body.
Okay Then it was good i did not try to brake it free .I had 4 o rings left so i thought they mayby should go in there.

After you guys convinced me to separate the carbs and replace the orings i started today.
I was a little afraid i had to fight with all the screws heating drilling and using extractor tool like i had to
when working on the carbs last time.But i was lucky and every screw came out easy.
I'm glad this work was done because i did find some dirt in the joints between the carbs.Some of the O rings also was
hardened.
The choke plungers are worn very thin I'm thinking of a way to fix that without replacing them...Mayby drill a hole
and tap it and set a screw in there.
I recomend this screw and o ring kit from RPM !
I cant find any torque specs on the carb screws so i guess just take it on feeling.

 


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: RPM - Robert on March 15, 2019, 10:32:30 AM
Yes, you will have 4 extra. The fuel pump carbs have a tee in the middle and transfer tubes between 1-2 and 3-4 that the gravity fed sets don't have.

Now is the time to replace the plungers. You won't be able to do it until you split the carb rack again.

Choke Plunger (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=ChokePlunger)


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Motofun on March 15, 2019, 11:49:30 AM
I did the drill/tap technique on a set of choke plungers.  Be careful with alignment and it works great.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 16, 2019, 11:58:02 AM
Today i was thinking that i had to do something about the worn chokeplungers .They cost 50 usd each i think that is
a little expensive so i desided that i will try to fix them instead .I looked in my old box with screws and did
find some brass screws that might work.The plan was to cut off the worn part and then drill a hole and tap it.And
then insert the screw. It worked out ok It was a little challenge to hold the plunger so they dont spin around with
pliers when drilling and tapping.The scews i made a little longer treaded section.
I used green loctite so they dont vibrate loose.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 23, 2019, 11:29:26 AM
some days ago i called the machine shop and asked how its going with my cylinders .As expected it was not finished
and he had not gotten it back from the place he sendt it for boring to so he can hone it.He promised it will be ready next week
as he did last time.I has now been 4 weeks It starting to get spring here and i want to get the bike on road again (well if it ever starts  :mocking:
 i installed the connection rods again with new bolts and nuts.First i did a recheck of the crank to see
if i had messed up and bendt it while torquing the rodnuts when the crank was outside the engine earlier.
It had not been bendt and had  only 0.02 mm  runout .
i installed the cranchaft into lower case after cleaning and lubed the new bearingshells then i used ziptie on the
number 1 and 5 bearing to hold it in place while torque.i secured the lower case to a wood frame so it is easier to
aply the torque without the case spinning round .I lubed the bolts with moly sulfide grease and torqued in 2 stages first to 25Nm then to 36 NM
The new nuts had alot of white wax on them i was unsure what to do i cleaned the wax off and lubed with koly sulfid grease.

Everything went fine until the last bolt .The wrench did not click and i had to losen and retight it several times
to get the wrench to click. :dash2: Then i looked at the stretch measurements i had measured all bolts before and after
torque to se if they stretched  same amount.  All bolts stretshed in the range of 0.35 to 0.44mm the last bolt got
longer and was at 0.60mm stretch .i then losened the bolt again and measured it it had now gotten longer it was
52.75mm and first time i measured it was 52.30mm .I then retorqed it with a increased torqe to 37 nm.Then i got it
stretched to 0.32mm wich is in the same range as the other bolts but Im not sure if i have to replace this bolt
because of the mishap.
Uppdate today i ordered 2new bolts so i can replace the bolt and get the torque 100% right. :flag_of_truce:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 23, 2019, 11:42:16 AM
Today i have installed Shiftshaft oilseal the orange oring in the center of engine  the RPM roller shift detent and a newer shiftdrum i bought on ebay in oktober. also a better shiftshaft than the one that is installed i the engine.
The shiftshaft seal was very easy to replace .The little orange o-ring in center of engine also was not the hardest thing to replace   :mocking: it is Not orange any more the new part is black.
I  replaced the shift drum after  a fight with the 2 retainer screws.
The shiftdrum i bought on ebay from a bike that has very low milage. I have boght many other parts from the same bike the transmission the shiftshaft ,pistons .
I compared the shiftdrums and at first look my old looked okay but when i took it out of the engine and took some hi res pics its shows it is worn much more than the ebay drum se the pics.Also the rollerbearing was real noisy.
The RPM roller shift detent was easy to install ,but the spring is different than orginal see pics so i was unsure if i should replace the spring. I ended up with replacing the spring .The bolt i use blue loctite and 10NM touque
Im looking forward to see how if it is any better feel to shifting .Hoping it will give a more contant shift. :bye2:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: RPM - Robert on March 23, 2019, 11:50:50 AM
Everything went fine until the last bolt .The wrench did not click and i had to losen and retight it several times
to get the wrench to click. :dash2:


Throw that torque wrench away. I don't think my dad has every stretched a rod bolt in over 25 years of building these engines using a good old fashioned beam style torque wrench.

As a matter of fact, you will not find a click style torque wrench in our shop.

Good call with the new spring being used on the RPM Roller Shift Detent Kit (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RPMRollerShiftkit). The new spring is stiffer because there is less friction due to the ball bearing roller. This allows for more positive shifts and less chance of missing a gear.

It would have been a mistake to use the old spring.



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ZOA NOM on March 23, 2019, 12:09:40 PM
Yup, good old beam style TR with a micrometer for measurements. Never lets you down.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 23, 2019, 02:54:11 PM
I did have a torque wrench like that but that is 20 years ago and it was not a god qality one.I remeber using it when rebuliding a ford escort xr3i engine.
I have 3 torque wrenches now 1 is totally out of calibration the other 2 is ok i think one is from 5 to 25 nm and the other is from 25 to 210 nm.
if i set the torque to 25 nm they both click at the same place so i think it is okay.But not sure when the nm increase to 36nm it seems like the newest wrench mayby is a little off when increase the torque.One thing i notised is when increase the torque aplied on the rodbolts like when i did some tests is that then the wrench does not click it seems the bolt instead stretching and continue stretching at same torque to the bolt finally snaps off. also the wrench seems to not click if i dont hold it in totally horisontal level. I guess i have to buy another wrench with higher qality.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ZOA NOM on March 23, 2019, 03:03:34 PM
I actually used a 12mm box wrench for my rod bolts. The stretch is the key. You can see the results from your over-stretch that it is not advisable to re-use them. They fatigue with each stretch and I just don't trust them after one or two times. I stretched mine twice, once to measure clearances on the crank journals, and then the final amount during assembly. I was very meticulous about the accuracy of measurement. All of my bolts were stretched to within a half - thousandth of each other, and all within a thou of the manufacturer's spec.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: RPM - Robert on March 23, 2019, 05:12:23 PM
Make sure the new retainer screws you use are tapered like the originals. I have seen where people have used a regular Allen bolt and the thinner material of the tapered retainer breaks and allows the entire shift barrel to move, ruining the shift forks, shift barrel, and gears. We have the proper screws in stock in torx I believe. I will have to check Monday.

I guess i have to buy another wrench with higher qality.

Don't guess, that is what you are doing now.

Get a new torque wrench and we prefer beam style wrenches. There are no mechanical parts to bind, no springs to loose tension and there is no future service required other than to replace it after 100,000 cycles.\


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on March 23, 2019, 08:45:29 PM
....but wait there’s more....Plus the beam style works both ways, for loosening and for tightening.
I check my head nuts to see if they are still holding torque at 25 ftlbs, with a beam style I can see at what value the nuts break loose.....can’t do that with a clicker.

Sometimes old school is best....


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ZOA NOM on March 23, 2019, 08:56:30 PM
Again... it's the stretch, not the method or tool.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on March 23, 2019, 10:08:06 PM
Again... it's the stretch, not the method or tool.

What is the bolt stretch measurement?

That is not a number provided by Yamaha that I am aware of.

If not supplied by Yamaha,  where does one go about finding the fluted rod bolt stretch length?

Inquiring minds need to know.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 24, 2019, 04:36:10 AM
Make sure the new retainer screws you use are tapered like the originals. I have seen where people have used a regular Allen bolt and the thinner material of the tapered retainer breaks and allows the entire shift barrel to move, ruining the shift forks, shift barrel, and gears. We have the proper screws in stock in torx I believe. I will have to check Monday.

I guess i have to buy another wrench with higher qality.

Don't guess, that is what you are doing now.

Get a new torque wrench and we prefer beam style wrenches. There are no mechanical parts to bind, no springs to loose tension and there is no future service required other than to replace it after 100,000 cycles.\

Thanks for the advise i used the orginal retainer screws that came with the transmission i bought on ebay.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ZOA NOM on March 24, 2019, 10:37:43 AM
Again... it's the stretch, not the method or tool.

What is the bolt stretch measurement?

That is not a number provided by Yamaha that I am aware of.

If not supplied by Yamaha,  where does one go about finding the fluted rod bolt stretch length?

Inquiring minds need to know.

Randy - RPM

I wouldn't expect Yamaha to manufacture their own rod bolts. Whoever makes them should provide a sheet that indicates the stretch value required. It may very well be that Yamaha simply translates that to a torque value to make it easier and faster for dealers, shops, etc., most of whom would be expected to have an acceptably accurate torque wrench. In any event, if you have the means to measure the bolt and the value required, the wrench used is unimportant.

It might be interesting to measure the stretch across several rod bolts using the torque method. You will likely find a significant difference in the stretch on individual bolts. I know I found significant (more than a couple thou) across 12 ARP racing rod bolts between the torque wrench method and the box wrench/micrometer method. In the end, I trusted the micrometer more than the torque wrench. The sequence I used with the box wrench was to tighten in a single smooth motion up to a specific angle that put me under but near the final value. Then a final stretch for the last couple thou after verifying the value.

If I didn't have the stretch value available, I might measure the stretch on the first bolt using the torque wrench, and then use the stretch measurement value to match the rest.

Again, rod bolts are designed to be stretched, it might be helpful to know how much.

Where the hell is Noel?  :bomb:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 24, 2019, 12:23:24 PM
Today i started to install the transmission and new little used shiftforks .It did not go as smooth as i tought
because first i had to remove the drive sprocket.The  workshopmanual instructs that the oilseal have to be istalled before the enginecases is put together so then i had to take off the drivesprocket. The nut was really stuck so
i had to put the cases together and use some of the enginebolts to keep things in place.I used a thick steelwire
to lock the sprocket when trying to loose the nut.First try i used a single wire and it snapped like sewing tread
next try i used double wire and superheated the nut then it came loose.
When i had removed the sprocket i saw that the oilseal probably can be installed after engine cases are bolted
together can this be confirmed?
Another thing i discovered was that when i was going to join the cases the little tab in the transmission bearings
did not fit because there was no hole in the case .I think that someone has used a lower enginecase from a fj1100
.A did a check on the old trasmission that was installed in bike and the tap was removed from the bearing so i
removed the tab on the trans im installing.
I was going to do more today but have to wait to tomorrow.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on March 24, 2019, 12:51:26 PM
Today i started to install the transmission and new little used shiftforks .It did not go as smooth as i tought
because first i had to remove the drive sprocket.The  workshopmanual instructs that the oilseal have to be istalled before the enginecases is put together so then i had to take off the drivesprocket. The nut was really stuck so
i had to put the cases together and use some of the enginebolts to keep things in place.I used a thick steelwire
to lock the sprocket when trying to loose the nut.First try i used a single wire and it snapped like sewing tread
next try i used double wire and superheated the nut then it came loose.
When i had removed the sprocket i saw that the oilseal probably can be installed after engine cases are bolted
together can this be confirmed?
Another thing i discovered was that when i was going to join the cases the little tab in the transmission bearings
did not fit because there was no hole in the case .I think that someone has used a lower enginecase from a fj1100
.A did a check on the old trasmission that was installed in bike and the tap was removed from the bearing so i
removed the tab on the trans im installing.
I was going to do more today but have to wait to tomorrow.

Trans Seal: There is the raised lip on the outer surface of the seal that shears off when installing with the case assembled. Better to install prior to putting the case halves together.

Trans Dowel: The dowel pin needs to be put back in that bearing. There is not a hole, but there is a notch in the lower case, to the rear of the bearing bore where that dowel pin is indexed.

I see you have the half circle bearing cir-clip in both case halves. You only need and should use one of them.

What did you do about the rod bolts?

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 24, 2019, 02:21:47 PM
Today i started to install the transmission and new little used shiftforks .It did not go as smooth as i tought
because first i had to remove the drive sprocket.The  workshopmanual instructs that the oilseal have to be istalled before the enginecases is put together so then i had to take off the drivesprocket. The nut was really stuck so
i had to put the cases together and use some of the enginebolts to keep things in place.I used a thick steelwire
to lock the sprocket when trying to loose the nut.First try i used a single wire and it snapped like sewing tread
next try i used double wire and superheated the nut then it came loose.
When i had removed the sprocket i saw that the oilseal probably can be installed after engine cases are bolted
together can this be confirmed?
Another thing i discovered was that when i was going to join the cases the little tab in the transmission bearings
did not fit because there was no hole in the case .I think that someone has used a lower enginecase from a fj1100
.A did a check on the old trasmission that was installed in bike and the tap was removed from the bearing so i
removed the tab on the trans im installing.
I was going to do more today but have to wait to tomorrow.

Trans Seal: There is the raised lip on the outer surface of the seal that shears off when installing with the case assembled. Better to install prior to putting the case halves together.

Trans Dowel: The dowel pin needs to be put back in that bearing. There is not a hole, but there is a notch in the lower case, to the rear of the bearing bore where that dowel pin is indexed.

I see you have the half circle bearing cir-clip in both case halves. You only need and should use one of them.

What did you do about the rod bolts?

Randy - RPM

Thanks Randy for correcting i did go down my cellar and checked if there was a notch and it was  :blush:! its strange that i missed that because it also mentioned in the manual i have!. I guess when
i inspected the transmission that was installed in bike and the dowel was removed i tought it had to be removed .So tghe last one working on the engine did same mistake as i and removed the dowel.
I will install the seal before joining the cases.
Its good to know there are experts watching! :good:
The rodbolts : i have installed 8 brand new bolts and nuts and lubed them with moly disulfid grease and tourqued them to 36NM all went well exept one bolt that i had trouble with and probably stretched to much so i have bought  one more new bolt that i get this week


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Urban_Legend on March 24, 2019, 03:33:26 PM
You really need to make sure the Trans dowell is in the correct position.
This is what it look like when it is not. This was from a previous owner of my bike.

Mark


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 25, 2019, 01:11:26 AM
 
You really need to make sure the Trans dowell is in the correct position.
This is what it look like when it is not. This was from a previous owner of my bike.

Mark

Hi Mark and thanks  yes i remeber you told me that in the first post of this tread so i was careful about about getting that right but even then i managed to not see the notch in the case where it sits . The dowel on the trans outputshaft bearing is different there is  not a hole in the case for it like on the other bearingpin dowels it is a notch in the seemline betwen the cases.
First i did not se any hole for it like there is  on the other bearings. so i guessed i had to remove it because it was removed on the old trasmission tha sat in bike.

And again thank for the tip of using 2 cardboards with drawing of the enginecases to put the enginescrews  in the right plases with torquespecs written down it is very smart and timesaving  :drinks:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 25, 2019, 09:15:13 AM
Today i was going to do some more assembly but then suddenly the guy i machineshop called and sayd the cylinders are finished bored honed and decked!! I jumped in the car and drove to  the shop.
The price on the work for boring honing and decking was 651 USD .
When i  got home i measured everything with dial bore gauge and micrometer and all cylinders now have a
piston to cylwall clearance of 0.06mm to 0.08mm and they are straight and round.
When i delivered the cylinders I told him to make the clearance from 0.03mm to 0.05mm  so they got a little bigger but i guess he know what he is doing and everything is fine.
The honemarks looks much finer grit than the one i made when i honed the old cylinders.
He hasent camfered the top edge but i dont think that is doing anything since i will install pistons from the underside of cylinders.
Now they have to be cleaned with hot soapy water .

Another thing... the piece in the red square on the pick from manual i dont understand where it suposed to fit ??


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on March 25, 2019, 10:15:29 AM
The cylinders look great and your right, much different than the hone you were using.

Like you said, no need to chamfer the top of the bore, the rings go in from the bottom.

Look at the photo of you hold the trans seal. No look at the boss just above the lower motor mount. There is a bolt hole and two straight raised bosses. The wires for the neutral light and low oil sensor pass between the two raised bosses and the clip goes over the top to hold them in.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 25, 2019, 12:08:54 PM
In my last post when reply to Urban legend Mark i have by a mistake clicked a ireful emoji i dont know how it got there and im not ireful at all so sorry Mark :biggrin:

Randy thanks for explaining about the mystery piece


Rolf


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on March 25, 2019, 12:31:39 PM
I fixed it Rolf...


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 25, 2019, 01:00:44 PM
I fixed it Rolf...

Thank you Pat :drinks:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 26, 2019, 09:18:58 AM
Today i have washed the cylinder and re measured the pistonring endgaps  .Then mounted the pistonrings with plenty of oil.
a pistonring compressor was used to insert the pistons into cylinders.I used lots of oil on both rings and inside the
cylinderbore.The pistons was inserted from underside because the bore is chamfered there.
I hoping that it will work to connect the pistonrods when the pistons is sticking out just enough to get the wristpin in.
it can be problems to because the lower oilring is right at the edge of cylinder and want to pop out.
Also mayby difficult to insert the wristpin circlip ..


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ZOA NOM on March 26, 2019, 11:42:17 AM
You should be able to rock the piston slightly downward so the pin will go. If the ring gap isn't located right above the end of the pin, the ring should stay seated.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 28, 2019, 02:12:15 AM
You should be able to rock the piston slightly downward so the pin will go. If the ring gap isn't located right above the end of the pin, the ring should stay seated.

I think it might work the ring gap  on the lower oilring is at the nr 2 position on the pic from the manual.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 28, 2019, 02:16:26 AM
Yesterday i did  some more work .First  that little dowelpin i by mistake removed from transmission outputshaft bearing was put back in.It was still a tight fit and i gently tapped it back in.
Then i replaced the transmission oilseal .I used moly sulfi grease on the oilseallips not sure if that is wrong type of grease to use on a oilseal.
Then the starterchain damper was mounted The manual instructs to use non hardening loctite .I did not find that so i used green loctite on the 2 bolts and torqed them to 10NM.
The plan was to do more work but then i discovered that i have to replace that rodbolt that im waiting on before
i can continue.
Im thinking of mayby use a little rtv on the outside of the crankshaft oilseal and endplug  It looks like the po has used rtv there ??


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 28, 2019, 01:03:13 PM
Today i got the new rodbolts so first i replaced the one i had problems with when torqed it .Then i installed the
starterchain and camchain the starterclutch and oiljetnozzle .Then i tested that the transmission shifting works right so i dont get a surprice when
engine is back in the bike  :bomb:
The manual says to lay the uppercase with cranchaft installed on top of the lower case .I think i will be easier
to put the lowercase with the transmission inside ziptied so it dont fall out when flipped.Then lay the lowercase on
top of the uppercase .I think it is easier to control because it is lighter.also when starting to torqe the first
bolts number 1 to 10 they all are on the underside of lower case and i dont have to flip the hole engine




Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on March 29, 2019, 12:52:52 AM
Having never split a case I think this is great! I probably would have completely [email protected]#ked it up about 4 times before getting help.

Great stuff mate  :good2:.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ZOA NOM on March 29, 2019, 01:30:20 PM
The instruction shown regarding which half to place onto which may have a purpose. The heavier weight of the half with the crankshaft in it will assist in sealing the halves when it is set down. Having said that, the torque sequence of the mating bolts should do the same thing. My "Porche" (Randy's spelling) motor is assembled heavy side down. Just tossing some extra stress your way.  :rofl2:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on March 29, 2019, 04:24:17 PM
The instruction shown regarding which half to place onto which may have a purpose. The heavier weight of the half with the crankshaft in it will assist in sealing the halves when it is set down. Having said that, the torque sequence of the mating bolts should do the same thing. My "Porche" (Randy's spelling) motor is assembled heavy side down. Just tossing some extra stress your way.  :rofl2:

Oh Ricky...

you spelled it wrong again...Poorche

BTW, we have added some Poorche 911 parts to the RPM inventory. You can find them by just using 911 in the search field.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on March 29, 2019, 04:56:50 PM
I leave the upper case with the crank on the bench like you have it.

I then hold the transmission in place with my hands from the outside and lay it onto the upper portion.

The zip tie idea you have seems like a good idea, but what supports the other end of the trans from falling out? With my hands, I can load the shafts and hold them in place as I put it over the top of the crank.

Make sure you have the two dowel pins and center case o-ring in place.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: FJ1200W on March 29, 2019, 05:56:36 PM
I'm going to be reading and reading this thread for a while - great info, thank you


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 30, 2019, 02:58:08 AM
Yesterday evening i put the cases togheter  torqued everything up and glued together with permatex  ul black and everything was fine ...well  i tought :Facepalm:  :dash2:
later on the evening  i started thinking about when i tok the transmission out again a last time because i wanted to be sure there was a little shim /washer mayby missing at the first gear since i had  the first gear off the axle many times when checking the transmission. The little washer/shim was in place and everything was fine and then i put the trans back in again ziptied it and started to aply permatex on the mating surfaces.
Then joined the cases and i torqued everything, but  gess what i forgot to check.....?. i going down in my cellar now to check some more now wish me luck


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 30, 2019, 05:22:26 AM
I have now been down in my cellar and checked if the seam is gaping where the little dowelpin in the transmission outputshaft bearing  is located.That is what i forgot yesterday .When i tok the transmission out for a last check and put it back in again
i managed to forget to see if that little .... pin was in its slot in the seamline in the case. :bomb:
I cant see any signs of bad fit or gaping in the seamline.I have tested if the transmission works and turns easy
and it does.I dont know if the dowelpin is crushed totally into the alu on the case or if i have got very lucky
and the dowelpin was in the right position but what are the odds of that ??


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on March 31, 2019, 09:29:09 AM
Today i have been down i cellar again.Since im not sure what happened with the little dowelpin in the big transmission output shaft bearing i decided that i had to split the cases again to check that it was not crushed into the soft case aluminium and mayby done some damage to the bearing.
When i reopened cases i cold see that the job was not needed since the dowelpin was in the right place  :dash1:!
so then i started the job cleaning the gasket surfaces again. Then i joined the cases again and did check  that the dowelpins and the orange oring was in right place before joining  :good2:
Then i had some more fun because when i was torquing the bolts and had came to bolt number 21 it decided to just snap off deep in the other case with a little bang  :yahoo: no warning signs first just snapped off and the torque wrench was at only 10NM non of the other bolts snapped so i guess the bolt was fatigued.I would have tough that the soft tread in the aluminiumcase would had been stripped before the bolt snapped???
First was thinking what the hell i just leave the rest of the shared off bolt in there and drive without the bolt :mad:
but then i decided that i had to split the cases for the third time and get the rest of the bolt out and that it was easier to re apply the permatex ultra black rtv while it was not hardenedyet.
When  the cases was opened again i could easy unscrew the rest of the bolt with my fingers.I think my fingergrip was a little harder than usual at the moment :biggrin:
So then i applied more permatex and joined the cases again for the third time i hope it is the last.
i will order Bolt nr 21 tomorrow  and screw it in


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ZOA NOM on March 31, 2019, 01:06:49 PM
You definitely get the award for persistence. And the writeup with pics is first class. Mods please archive!


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on March 31, 2019, 02:04:39 PM
Rick, you were reading my mind. :good:



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 01, 2019, 05:54:17 AM
You definitely get the award for persistence. And the writeup with pics is first class. Mods please archive!
Good to see there is some interest about the topic.Im hoping this tread will help others when doing a rebuild and to avoid doing things i done wrong.It is also great guidance for me so i dont
do to many mistakes  :yes:
Today i have been at the local yamaha dealer and bought bolt 21 they could not get it before friday,but i can start doing other things.
Right now im scratching my head if i can reuse the new  piston wristpin circlips .They are new and i only used them once in the old pistons  they have only been mounted in the pistons.
today i also bought new wristpincirclips but i have to wait  to friday for them to. If i can reuse the one i got i can start with the cylinders today


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 02, 2019, 09:51:02 AM
Yesterday i got a little more done installed the bearing retainer and the rear camchain guide.
I used green loctite on the 3 bolts and 12 NM torque .
On the bolt with the spring that give tension to the rear chainguide i torqued to 10 Nm no loctite here.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 02, 2019, 09:59:08 AM
Today i started mounting the cylinder and connect  the pistons wich  is already installed in the bores with the rings on.I reused 4 wristpinclips that only has been mounted on the old pistons and not used i hope that is okay =)
First i was planning to insert the rods and pistons into cylinders and then put on the endcap rodbolts but im not sure if the rodbolts can be installed upside down..so i used another method instead.
I started with piston 3 and 4 and pushed them out so the wristpin gio in and connects with the rod.
There was a little fiddley because the oilring easy popps out if giong to far out with the piston then have
to push it back in again .
On the last pistons this method was even more fiddley , but i think it is easier than pushing the hole barell
over 4 pistons .
The best method will be to use 4 small pistonring compressors .
I hope i did not miss anything when installing the cylinders  i mean i installed 2 dowelpins and the basegasket
and cylinder o-rings  
Im thinking there should be a o ring at right side of the engine at the rear stud ??



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: RPM - Robert on April 02, 2019, 10:34:40 AM
I would throw that base gasket in the garbage. Those paper ones were junk to begin with. The new ones that Yamaha use are metal with a gasket coating on each side. They don't pooch out and leak over time.

Noel, and several others have had this problem with the paper style gaskets
 http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=9889.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=9889.0)    
 http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=12091.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=12091.0)


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ZOA NOM on April 02, 2019, 10:39:35 AM
Mods, this is a treasure trove of images. Will they remain on the server over time? I know that there are some older threads that linked images to external sources like photobucket, etc., that have been lost as the user's subscription expired, or they moved to another service, etc. I wonder if the space on the FJowners server is limited?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 02, 2019, 11:07:55 AM
Good point Rick. The only pictures we can control are the pictures in our Gallery.
If Rolf would like to save these images in our FJ Gallery I’m sure we could find the room. If we need the room there are dozens of less important or redundant pictures we could delete. (IMHO)

We have had several great threads lose their third party hosted pictures over the years.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ZOA NOM on April 02, 2019, 11:21:12 AM
Yeah, threads like this with so much info including pics are so valuable to this aging marque and it's enthusiasts. We might want to explore adding bandwidth if necessary.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 03, 2019, 02:28:11 AM
after reading about the problems with the basegasket im not sure what to do. I have already bought the steelgasket from RPM but it is very thin and i dont trust its sealing performance. I think that the gasketsurface has to be 100% smooth and perfect with absolutely no imperfections .I dont think the surface on my crankcase and cylinder underside is that.
The gasket that was installed when i teardown the engine is of a hard darkbrown almost like plastic material i dont know where i can get that.
Since the metalgasket is so thin i mayby get problems when trying to align the camchaft timingmarks .Is there any type of sealer that can be used with the metalgasket? or with the papergasket?
Is it so that the problem with the papergasket mayby only happens on bikes that have removed the airbox and use a external crankcase ventilation filter  and have unipods creating higher crankcase pressure?



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Paul.1478 on April 03, 2019, 07:17:18 AM
this is from Randy from another liked thread.

"That gasket failed for no other reason than substandard gasket material combined with expansion & contraction of the case & barrel.

This was a problem addressed by Yamaha a long time ago when they went to the current steel coated base gasket.

Crankcase pressure, not in a normal operating FJ, unless the rings are worn out. If crankcase pressure was an issue, Yamaha would have done somethin different.

Randy - RPM"


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: RPM - Robert on April 03, 2019, 09:36:55 AM
after reading about the problems with the basegasket im not sure what to do. I have already bought the steelgasket from RPM but it is very thin and i dont trust its sealing performance. I think that the gasketsurface has to be 100% smooth and perfect with absolutely no imperfections .I dont think the surface on my crankcase and cylinder underside is that.
The gasket that was installed when i teardown the engine is of a hard darkbrown almost like plastic material i dont know where i can get that.
Since the metalgasket is so thin i mayby get problems when trying to align the camchaft timingmarks .Is there any type of sealer that can be used with the metalgasket? or with the papergasket?
Is it so that the problem with the papergasket mayby only happens on bikes that have removed the airbox and use a external crankcase ventilation filter  and have unipods creating higher crankcase pressure?



No No No No No NO NONONONONONO


Thousands, if not tens of thousands, of motors have been built using the metal base gasket. The metal gasket you have IS the current metal gasket that was used on all new motors built from Yamaha. the mating surfaces between the barrels and case is a machined surface if it damaged or not flat then you have a problem there already.

Every single Legends Car, Thunder Roadster, Kenyon midget, and any other race car that used the FJ powerplant, not to mention the countless FJ/XJ/XJR bikes, do not run the airbox. Crankcase pressure is not the problem. Crap gaskets, which Yamaha HAS addressed by using only metal gaskets now, is the problem.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 06, 2019, 03:20:48 AM
I have not come any further in the assembly because i have got confused about the basegasket.
i have 3 different gaskets first i got a old asbestos gasket with partnumber starting at  1TX which i think is the same type that was mounted in the bike
Second i got a paper gasket with partnumber starting on 4CR  which i think is the one yamaha started to make when asbestos was forbidden.
and the third one is the latest metalgasket
The metal gasket is only 0.25mm thick and the asbestos is 0.60mm thick.I'm thinking that if i use the thin metalgasket there will bee some problems. First mayby i cant get the timingmarks right without buying new slotted camsprockets second i might get to high compression with all the trouble that brings overheating detonation and more.
And will the red cylinder orings fall out when using the metalgasket because of the larger diameter .
the cylinder is also decked 0.07mm so that makes the squish even more .mayby the piston will hit the valves?
I'm thinking of using the old asbestos gasket since the one that was installed in bike have not leaked in 30 years
or use the metal but then i mayby will have order one more and use double  to get thicker ?
also the bolt nr21 that snapped have not arrived and had to be ordered from japan....



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ZOA NOM on April 06, 2019, 10:01:08 AM
I'm not sure why you are fixated on the thickness of the gasket. Put the new metal gasket in that motor and torque it down properly. Do it, and don't give it another thought.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 06, 2019, 10:37:10 AM
If you are worried about the possibility of the timing marks not lining up on your cam chain, you can always get the adjustable cam sprockets.
RPM (http://www.rpmracingca.com/), HSR and Curt Andrews all strongly recommend the metal base gasket.

If you are worried about valve/piston clearances, use modeling clay.



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 06, 2019, 10:40:05 AM
It is because off what i wrote in my last post about mayby it will be  problems with setting the timing marks and/ or to much compression and mayby piston hitting valves .
If anyone have used only the metalgasket without any trouble chime out.
If i use the metalgasket i drop the cylinders about 0.40mm. I can use double metalgaskets and get almost the same hight as it was vhen teardown.
And the old production gasket i have with asbestos made before 1994  i think is more solid than the other papergasket without asbestos.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on April 06, 2019, 03:22:31 PM
Rolf,

Robert has already said which gasket to use and the reasons behind it. The metal gasket is .010" thick compare to the fiber gaskets at .020". So, if you are concerned you can stack them. We use the gasket as a means of building our engines to the highest possible performance with only the gasket I have supplied you.

You have not taken into account another modification that you have done and created even more of an issue in conjunction with the base gasket. The top of the cylinder was machined after the sleeves were installed.
      Did you find out how much they cut off?
      Did you measure the cylinder bank thickness before and after having the machine work done?

You have also been sanding on the head and removing material from that head gasket surface.
      Did you measure the thickness of the head from when you started and after you sanded the surface?

All of these things will "shorten" the engine stack and cause the timing chain to be "longer". If you are worried about the alignment of the timing marks, then slotted cam gears are the resolution.

There are two thing you need to be concerned with when building the engine.
1) Piston to head clearance at TDC
2) Cam timing.

If the pistons are too close to the head then the gaskets will need to be stacked. We do this regularly, especially on the 3rd, 4th and more rebuilds since the sleeves get changed and the barrel gets cut every time.

If you have good piston the head clearance and the cams will not align the marks because of all of the material removed from the barrels and head surfaces, then slotted timing gears are the answer to the issue.

My recommendation, pull the piston rings. Put it together without any base gasket in place. Measure the distance the piston is recessed into the cylinder at TDC. Once you have that measurement, you can determine if you need a single or a stack of gaskets. If it is not recessed (highly unlikely) then the amount it is protruding from the cylinder will determine how many base gaskets will be needed.

Once you have that sorted and the timing marks don't line up, slotted cam gears are the answer.

Do not worry about too much compression. The valves will not hit the top of the piston unless the cam timing is off more that 2-3 teeth. The amount of material you might have removed will likely be less than a half a tooth.

You have been provided a ton of information and what I, a professional builder of these engines,  uses for all of my builds. We have guided you along the way and you have been very thorough, but you seem to be hung up right here. I have read your concerns, but all of them are fairly easy to rectify if they are indeed and issue.

And finally, take those orange o-rings off the bottom of the cylinders and throw them away. They only swell up and break apart and get into the engine. Throw them away.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on April 06, 2019, 03:34:31 PM
I wish I would have notice sooner, but you need to get the left motor mount out of the engine. It is supposed to be free floating in the case and not seized. Since it is still in the case, I presume it is seized.

It would have been really easy to remove it when the cases were separated and it could have been put into a press.

At least you could put some heat to it before you install the based gasket and cylinder to try and get it out. Just be very careful, the casting is easily breakable if trying to remove it with a hammer.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on April 06, 2019, 05:31:34 PM
Just what is the intent or purpose of the orings at the base of the cylinders?

Seems to me they would just fall off into the motor.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on April 06, 2019, 05:50:06 PM
Just what is the intent or purpose of the orings at the base of the cylinders?

Seems to me they would just fall off into the motor.

Yes, that is what happens...

I can only presume they were to prevent oil from creeping up between the cylinder block and the sleeves and causing a leak.

I have never had a leak like that before...

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 07, 2019, 06:01:45 AM
Thanks for the helpfull advices  i come back to that later because im in a hurry now and need a answer  and question is:
i have now installed the metalgasket  and cylinders it is not bolted down so the metalgasket is not crushed yet and it now measure 0.45mm. it is 0.25 when installed/crushed.
I have the measured the piston to cylinderdeck and it is 0.12mm down to piston from top of cylinder. When i calculate that the basegasket is crushed the measuremet will be that the piston will stick above the cylinderdeck 0.08mm . Is that okay or do i need one more gasket ??


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on April 07, 2019, 07:37:11 AM
My recommendation, pull the piston rings. Put it together without any base gasket in place. Measure the distance the piston is recessed into the cylinder at TDC. Once you have that measurement, you can determine if you need a single or a stack of gaskets. If it is not recessed (highly unlikely) then the amount it is protruding from the cylinder will determine how many base gaskets will be needed.

Stop guessing, especially if you do not have a compressed gasket steel base gasket.

Follow the process outlined above to know what you'll need in reference to base gasket thickness.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on April 07, 2019, 07:44:07 AM
I reused 4 wristpinclips that only has been mounted on the old pistons and not used i hope that is okay =)

I just noticed this comment,  I must have missed it earlier.

I would not recommend or do this.

Sometimes you have to do what you have to do, but  to this point you have been very particular during your build.  This seems quite the opposite...

Randy  - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 07, 2019, 08:16:28 AM
Randy thanks for guiding .I have now just came back from engine in my cellar and i think i need  another basegasket because when trying to calculate the piston to cyldeck i found that piston will be 0.08mm abowe the deck. I dont know if that is normal or if the piston have to be flush or below cylinderdeck.
I know you told me to check without rings and basegasket but then i already started installing the cylinders and metalbasegasket. I was hoping that the pistons was lower in the cylinders and i could just put on the
head and camchafts. Now when i found that the pistons will be about 0.08mm higher than the cylinderdeck im not sure if that is going to work.I  Think i buy another steelbase gasket .

Yes i measured the cylinder before the machinechop got them and the measurement was : left side front 88.32mm and after decked it was 88.25 mm  right side front was 88.35mm and after 88.27mm
left side back was 88.32mm and after 88.28mm     right side back was 88.33 and after 88.29mm i looks like it was shaved about 0.08mm .

today i replaced the wristpin circlips with new ones,but now i have to order new again when i take off the cylinders and reinstall next time  :smile:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on April 08, 2019, 01:42:01 PM
Randy thanks for guiding .I have now just came back from engine in my cellar and i think i need  another basegasket because when trying to calculate the piston to cyldeck i found that piston will be 0.08mm abowe the deck. I dont know if that is normal or if the piston have to be flush or below cylinderdeck.
I know you told me to check without rings and basegasket but then i already started installing the cylinders and metalbasegasket. I was hoping that the pistons was lower in the cylinders and i could just put on the
head and camchafts. Now when i found that the pistons will be about 0.08mm higher than the cylinderdeck im not sure if that is going to work.I  Think i buy another steelbase gasket .

I am confused, that is .08mm(0.003") above the deck surface with a base gasket or without?

The piston needs to be below the deck or it will contact the head.

By looking at you cylinder thicknesses they cut .020" off the cylinder.

So, without the base gasket installed, you need to know how much the piston is protruding out of the cylinder bank. Once you have that we can sort out what base gasket thickness is required.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 09, 2019, 12:24:13 AM
Yes i calculated that the piston will protrude .08mm above the cylinderdeck when one metal base gasket is used.
I have measured the old basegasket that was installed and it is 0.50mm compressed. The metalgasket i measured is 0.25mm .So im going to buy another metalgasket and stack them so i get 0.50mm.Then the machineshop have cut off .08 mm on the cylinder  so now the pistons  will be only .08 mm higher in the bores than before engine teardown .But still below the deck.
I will double check later .


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 10, 2019, 12:02:28 PM
since i dont get the metal basegasket before thursday or friday i have done some other fixings on the bike.
Replaced the petcock O-ring and the fuelsender unit gasket in tank.The fuelsender unit gasket i knew was a little torn from when i used the tanksealer kit 2 years ago.
Today when i was out hunting for a rtv that tolerate gasoline well i then found some hoseclamps that looks almost
similar like triumph pistoncompressors. They was real sheap so i bought 4 .When testing them they worked very well
so i think i use them when installing the cylinderbarell next time.
I was going to order new cylinderhead nuts because they was rusty and ugly but they  cost 155 usd at yamaha
so instead i tested to put then in a bottle of etch i had left from the tanksealer project 2 years ago.
It worked good and they dont look so bad now.
The tanksealer has worked very good and there is no more rust in the fuelfilter.I does not flake off there was no
flakes in the tank .


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: RPM - Robert on April 10, 2019, 12:08:31 PM
155 USD!? It seems like you keep going to the wrong place to buy your parts.

Cylinder Head Nut (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=90176-10078) 35 USD for a set of 12 here.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: ZOA NOM on April 10, 2019, 12:12:22 PM
You gotta pay for the reindeer to deliver em...


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 10, 2019, 12:13:32 PM
155 USD!? It seems like you keep going to the wrong place to buy your parts.

Cylinder Head Nut ([url]http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=90176-10078[/url]) 35 USD for a set of 12 here.

yes i know and i almost ordered them from you about a month ago but the shipping on those os high because of the weight.I still would have been sheeper but now since im unpatient getting the bike
on the road i reuse the one i got .I bought one from you on an earlier order tough :yes:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: RPM - Robert on April 10, 2019, 12:16:43 PM
You gotta pay for the reindeer to deliver em...

Right around 35 USD for the reindeer to deliver a set of these; means a savings of 85 USD. Not too bad. Although it would be a week or two wait time.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 10, 2019, 12:20:35 PM
On the order i got from you at 1000 usd i checked at yamaha here what the price would be on those parts and it was almost 3 times doubled price!! :shok:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: RPM - Robert on April 10, 2019, 12:23:41 PM
Yikes!

Glad you saved a few Krone  :good2:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 10, 2019, 12:35:27 PM
Yes you guys has saved my ass thanks!
By the way is it not possible to install the cylinders and head while engine is in the bike? i was thinking to carry the engine into my garage and install the engine without the cylinders first but
i think i read somwhere on the forum that it is not possible ??


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: RPM - Robert on April 10, 2019, 12:40:13 PM
The cylinders would be a royal PITA trying to deal with the rings and everything in the chassis.

It is possible to get the head and cams install in the frame but it is much easier to do while it is out.

Possible... Yes
Easier... No


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 11, 2019, 01:04:14 AM
The cylinders would be a royal PITA trying to deal with the rings and everything in the chassis.

It is possible to get the head and cams install in the frame but it is much easier to do while it is out.

Possible... Yes
Easier... No

Okay that is god to know then i think i will install cylinders and head before installing engine in bike.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 11, 2019, 01:16:53 AM
Just posting some picks to show how i sealed the tank before poring in the etch and sealer.I used rtv silicone and small woodblocks.I did a mistake and  used to much rtv and that is not smart because later i found a lot of small black pieces embedded in the white sealer.I should have used another type of rtv that is gasoline safe.The black rtv pieces is still stuck in the sealer now 2 years later so that is good :yes:
I use bil hirsch gas tank sealer it contains 3 bottles rince, etch , and liner/sealer.It is alcohol and ethanol safe.
also i have painted the headers with a heat color that i have testet using a torch on :biggrin: so hoping that will stay on


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on April 11, 2019, 03:57:47 AM
I had the 1200 cases in when I put the barrels on.

But the bike was on a hoist and I used 4 vice grips on the studs to hold the barrels in position whilst getting it over the rings.

Not particularly easy but doable.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 11, 2019, 05:11:11 AM
I had the 1200 cases in when I put the barrels on.

But the bike was on a hoist and I used 4 vice grips on the studs to hold the barrels in position whilst getting it over the rings.

Not particularly easy but doable.

Thats a good tip thanks


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 11, 2019, 01:17:50 PM
This evening i got the metalgasket and new wristpin circlips and bolt nr 21 that snapped off earlier.
I started with measuring the piston to cylinderdeck whitout any gasket. It was difficult to do a good measure
and i used both a dialgauge and feelerblades. After several attempt getting a good measure i found that the piston
is  above the cylinderdeck 0.26 mm  at tdc.
i tested the hoseclamp on the pistons and it was useless even if it worked perfect when tested on bench yesterday.
so i will use the other method .
I re measured the metalgasket and found it is 0.20 mm .so with one gasket the piston height will be 0.06 mm above
cyldeck and with 2 gaskets stacked it will 0.14 mm under the cylinder deck.I think that is okay??
I almost did a mistake again because i was going to put on the sump pan and use some permatex on the surfaces
so it will harden before i fill op engine with oil.I'm glad i suddenly remembered that the nr21 bolt that snapped
was not  installed yet .so that is enough for this evening.
The gaskets for the sump and clutchcover is made of coated metal I'm not sure if i can use some permatex ultra black
on the surface on the pan because there are some scratches there ??


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on April 11, 2019, 09:34:28 PM
The piston has to be below the deck,  you will be fine with two gaskets.

There is not any gasket sealant required on any of the gaskets you are installing. Hell,  you don't need any more lock rite either.

DO NOT use sealants! :ireful:

The oil pan is the last thing to install.  The engine remains stable without it so you can get the barrels install,  head installed and cams properly timed.

Put the pan on and the thing will keep trying to tip over.

Finally,  you need to address the motor mount.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 19, 2019, 01:28:25 AM
Here is an update It has ben some hectic days .I worked hard to get the engine in the bike.I taught that i would
manage to get the bike ready in one day but instead it took me 5 long days :shok: .one reason is that almost everything
i tryed to assembly was fighting back and i had to use long time to get it right.Working in my tight garage
did not help either.
First day in the garage i fitted the cylinders .I used the method where i first install all 4 pistons with the rings
on in the cylinder then lower it over the studs and connect the rods and pistons and installing wristpins and
circlips. I had planned to use the hoseclamps that worked great to get the pistons in the cylinders ,but when i try
to use them when the cylinderbarrel is lowered over the studs they where useless and could not be used.
After the cylinder barell was installed the oilrelief valves and pickupscreen was mounted .Then i used lugage straps
and a jack to lift the engine up into the frame of bike
and then installed the rear engine mounts i forgot to take a pick of that.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 19, 2019, 02:30:08 AM
On day 2 in the garage i had the engine lifted into frame and bolted in the rear engine mounts. Then installed the cylinder head
.There was problems when torqued the cylinder headnuts.I oiled the treads with engine oil and started to apply
torque i was planning to toque them in 2 steps first 28NM then 35NM final ,but the torquewrench did make me wonder
if something was wrong because again it did not click even i felt i used much more force than 28NM.After some
fiddling i got it to click at 28NM on all nuts but i did not dear to try to torque them to 35Nm because then i think
a stud would snap or strip treads. :bomb: I know it was not smart to use my not reliable torque wrench but i havent had time
or money to buy another more professional right now.I will recheck the torque with a better wrench later.
Then i installed the camshafts and try to get the timingmarks to match up.I did not tought that would not be a
problem since i have done it sometimes before ,but there i was wrong.I spent many hours trying to get them to match.
At last i got it right by remowe the intake camsprocket and remesh the thimingchain.
After that i checked the valves and was very surprised that almost all of them had to be adjusted.I adjusted the
valves earlier this winter on the bech so i dont understand why the all where off??? i had to get 3 more shims even
i have about 10 extra shims laying here.I drove to yamaha and the mechanic there sold me the shims.
Later when i was installing the oilpump and clutchbasket i did a chocking discovery.deep inside the oilpan there was a shim laying  :shok: :shok:.
I mean wTF ?? how the hell did it get there?  :scratch_one-s_head: i did not put it there ?? i got it out with a magnetic tool.



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 19, 2019, 03:57:59 AM
On day 3 and 4 i mounted more parts on the bike.like clutch starter alternator fixed some wires ets ets..
one thing that took a god loong day was installing the carbs back.I have done this several times but this time it
was extra painful because the airbox rubbers are so damaged and torn.I have bought new rubbers from eBay but they
turned out to not fit and i did not discover that before i was in the midle of installing them.I tryed some rubbers
from fzr1000 i had but they did not fit either so i had to reuse my old ones if i wanted the bike back on road .
I ended up drilling large holes in back of the airbox and use a long screwdriver that was not sharp to guide the
rubbers on to the lower carbtroats.
After a long day getting the carbs installed i pre filled them with fuel to make the startup faster and look for
leaks. And heyyyy when i was pouring the fuel into fuelline the fuel just pissed out the overflow tubes !! :dash1: that was
not funny .I then had to rethink everything and take a break. Then later that evening i got back in the garage and
knocked on the carb bowls  to see if it mayby it will free up a stuck float and like a miracle the carbs stopped
leaking !! :yahoo:
Next day i mounted the exhaust with new gaskets.Filled 3.3litres yamalube and try to start.I have made a video of
the first startup but i dont know how to upload the video.
Fist i used the startermotor with the plugs out to prelube the engine .Then i mounted the plugs at first it was dead
but that was because i forgot to put the plugcaps on =) second try was also no action so the i used a little
carbthrottle cleaner in airfilter  and the she fired right up and sounded real good so that was a relief and im a
happy man !! :dance:
A little later i was out for a ride i knew it was going to be short because i read that the first ride after rebuild
should last about 5 minutes .After some minutes the oil lamp came on so i stopped and looked for obvious problems
like oil leaks .There was no leaks and when i took a look at the oil level sight glass it was very low on oil.
So then i waited about 40 minutes eating a hot dog and a cola at the gas station.so the engine got cold i read that
this is the procedure after first 5 minutes on a rebuild ride..Then i ride
back home and filled a little more oil and ride some more this time the oil lamp stayed off.Then i rode home again
about a 10 minutes ride .So far there is no bad engine noises no bangs no more sharp metallick clicks . :yahoo:
The gearing feels much better
I want to thank everyone that has helped me with there expertise it really been great help.Thanks to Randy and
Robert at RPM that has given guidance and advice and for the super service they provide.They shipped the parts
faster than lightning . :good2: :good2: :i_am_so_happy: :bye2:
Il bee back with more updates after a little more riding


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 19, 2019, 06:00:50 AM
Then i got a you tube upload:
https://youtu.be/3ctFFJd65hA (https://youtu.be/3ctFFJd65hA)


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on April 19, 2019, 07:18:26 AM
Well done Rolf!!  :good2: :yahoo:
It is a wonderful feeling. You must be very satisfied.

You probably already know, but re-torque will be necessary shortly. It is also a good time to check every nut and screw is tight when you’re doing the RE torque.

I’m sure you’ve already done it but, balance the carbies, and get the mixture right.

I really like idea for the holes in the back of the airbox. One of my 11’s has an airbox that is easy, and one is a real bugger like yours.

With the attention to detail, and real care you’ve put in, this bike should be good for another 30 years!

The timing looks like you can do the advance trick, and as you’ve already pulled the clutch, did you do the basic clutch mod and remove the wire retainer?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: T Legg on April 19, 2019, 09:11:25 AM
Your engine sounds great.You are the definition of perseverance.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 19, 2019, 09:48:09 AM
Well done Rolf!!  :good2: :yahoo:
It is a wonderful feeling. You must be very satisfied.

You probably already know, but re-torque will be necessary shortly. It is also a good time to check every nut and screw is tight when you’re doing the RE torque.

I’m sure you’ve already done it but, balance the carbies, and get the mixture right.

I really like idea for the holes in the back of the airbox. One of my 11’s has an airbox that is easy, and one is a real bugger like yours.

With the attention to detail, and real care you’ve put in, this bike should be good for another 30 years!

The timing looks like you can do the advance trick, and as you’ve already pulled the clutch, did you do the basic clutch mod and remove the wire retainer?

Yes i know that it has to be re torqued, but not sure how long to wait before that i also have to get a better torque wrench. When i torqued it felt like i used way to much pressure and one if the bolts
made a cracking sound and then it felt spongy and rotated mayby 2 millimeters backward when i released pressure . :yes:
I have not balanced the carbs yet i have to make or buy a sync tool.
The holes in the airbox i temporary used ductape on im going to use a styrene sheet and tape that . First i was thinking to just cut of a big piece and make it hinged so it is even more easy to fit
the rubbers.
The cutch was rebuild last Autumn as a part of gettin the bad noises go away  i replace all steel friction and fiberplated i refitted the steelwire. i have also replaced the clutch bearings and the little steelball and the clutch pushrod.and a new little used clutchbasket.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 19, 2019, 09:58:19 AM
Your engine sounds great.You are the definition of perseverance.

Thanks its been a journey lots of small irritating moment but also very fun and in the end a good feeling. Now I'm trying to figure  out what method to brake in the engine.Some say full throttle some say
easy i think i go for the brake in in procedure in Haynes manual .
i have now been on a 8 km trip and the shifts feel great and no more bad noises so far ,but i started hearing valve ticking but i guess that is because some exhaustvalves is at the loose side


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on April 20, 2019, 03:43:35 AM
G’day Rolf,

Here are the clutch and timing mod links.

I hope you’ve kept the old clutch bits.

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.0)

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4292.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4292.0)



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on April 20, 2019, 04:11:14 AM
I followed the Haynes method, but I think 500km is probably enough.

Re torque ‘as necessary’ which to me is 50km or oil leak.

Anyone else want to chip in?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 20, 2019, 12:34:43 PM
G’day Rolf,

Here are the clutch and timing mod links.

I hope you’ve kept the old clutch bits.

[url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.0[/url] ([url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.0[/url])

[url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4292.0[/url] ([url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=4292.0[/url])




Hi Troy
I thanks for reminding me of the clutch and timing advance mods.I know of them and have decided not to to the mods right now .I havent had much clutchslip on my yamaha i think mayby it is because i only use yamalube oil.I know that with syntethic oil the clutch fibers can get to slippery.I wait and se to the engine is breaked in if i get slips i do the clutch mod mayby i try to fit another
clutchspring first.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 20, 2019, 01:01:41 PM
I have now driven 4 or 5  small trips. And total 50 kilometers today the trip was 15 kilometers and the engine is starting to have valve noise i stopped at a parkinglot and noticed the engine is really hot
it also came a little smoke out from the sidecover opening on left side. I did a thoroughly check for oil leaks with white paper and did not find any.I think the little smoke is coming from a Little leak from one of the valvecover bolts that i did not manage to check  becaus i had no tools with me.It is funny i almost always carry some basic tools in my backpack when i ride the fj but today when doing testrides after a rebuild i have no tools with me  :scratch_one-s_head:.The engine was really hot and i waited about one hour and half before it had cooled down.I first tough that the oilpump was not working because when i felt on the oilcooler it was much cooler than the rest of the engine but  that was after mayby half an hour .I then rode back home and when i got home the engine was cooler than the the first trip and did not smoke. I also checked the oilcooler and now it was hot to touch  so then i know that the oilpump is working. I guess its normal that engine gets  hot when breaking it in.
I dont like the valve ticking noise but i guess and hope its just because i adjusted the exhaust valves on the lose side.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on April 20, 2019, 01:13:32 PM
When looking at the pick of my bike i remeber a funny story from last summer.I was on the same parkinglot doing some work on my car when i heard police sirens then a black yama r1 came fast driving over the parkinglot and into that little
mud track you see in the back of the bike.The track just go into the woods .The coops never showed up so i guess he was lucky it took a long time before he came out from the woods  :rofl:
There is a intersection longer down the road that the cops did not turn into right direction


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: fj1289 on April 20, 2019, 07:06:30 PM
...
I dont like the valve ticking noise but i guess and hope its just because i adjusted the exhaust valves on the lose side.

It’s the really quiet valves you really won’t like hearing!  Too much clearance is much much better than too little!


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 03, 2019, 06:42:04 AM
Here is a  update what happened since i put the engine back in the bike and during the brake in of the engine.
The ticking sound started to get worse and not more quiet as i was hoping It got so bad that i was wondering if i could drive home.so tryed to  adjust the valves fore a second
time.
First i did a compression test and all cylinders was  around 11.5 BAR  then adjusted the valves  to the tighter side of spec 0.16 to 0.17 on exhaust and 0.10 to 0.13 on inntakevalves.
I then did some riding but the sound was still there. :dash2: It was a little more quiet but not good.I then suspected that
one of the shimbuckets is worn out  and slapping around because i remember one of them was colored dark blue and yellow when i assembly
the engine.
Then thinking that mayby if i torque the cylinderhead nuts to spec 35NM it will help because When i assembly the engine
i did not take the chance to break a cylinderhead stud  they are 33 year old  :yes: or strip its treads by torquing to hard.Therefore I torqued
the nuts to 28Nm instead of 35NM that time.Also my tourquewrench is not reliable and i felt that when torquing to
28NM i used much more force than needed before the wrench clicked.
the bolts also made cracking sounds !.
So i decided to give it a try anyway and torque to 35NM.I loosened one bolt at time  a quarter turn and re torqued to 35NM
it felt as they was going to snap off but they didn't.When i test rode the bike afterwards the ticking noise was totally
gone and  after that i have been riding about 200 kilometers and the bike is quiet and runs very well. :i_am_so_happy:
My theory is that the ticking sound was because the headgasket was not enough compressed after first tourque 28NM.
Yesterday i had a little shock when suddenly the engine made a noise that sounded like 2 psychotic witches screaming
and howling  :shok: i pulled to the side of the road and stopped engine fast.I tough about it for a while and then
remembered that i have heard similar sound before a couple of years ago and that i then suspected  the speedometer .Last time it happened it was
cold outside and yesterday it was only 3 degree Celsius.I then rode the bike some more and the engine sounded great.
Today it is cold only 1 degree Celsius and i tok the bike for a ride hoping to get confirmed that the sound is
speedometer and not a bearing going to hell.So after some riding the sound came back i describe it as the sound of screaming witches of death=)
i then pulled clutch  fast and shut off engine and with engine off  i was traveling about 80 km/h the howling sound was still there so then i was
happy that it wasn't the engine.
I have now driven 600 KM and in 400 KM i going to change oil and filter.The engine now feels much more free and i think it
is almost finished braked in it is also cooler to the touch after a ride.I have only reved it to 7000 rpm so far .



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 03, 2019, 07:21:58 AM
Im now working on how to get cyl 2 and 3 running leaner


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: balky1 on May 03, 2019, 10:27:28 AM
I am far from being an expert, but that number 3 looks the best to me with that slight tan. Although, there is also the vacuum advance...


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Troyskie on May 05, 2019, 01:35:58 AM
I am far from being an expert, but that number 3 looks the best to me with that slight tan. Although, there is also the vacuum advance...

Yep, same for me.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 05, 2019, 06:13:51 AM
the pick of plug 3 is not so good here is another pic of plug 3 i think that the fist pick is some days eariler also smell fuel from plug


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: balky1 on May 05, 2019, 07:45:57 AM
Yep, rich. But there is other thing to consider. Richer mixture leads to colder engine. Since it is an air cooled engine, maybe it is better to have them that way than to be clean like other two.
Like I said earlier, they may be also clean because of the vacuum advance from CDI (but the question remains why the other two are so much darker). If it is working on your bike, I think you can't get a proper conclusion from reading spark plugs that way. Pat, Randy, Robert, Noel and Monkey are the people here that might give you better answers than me.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 05, 2019, 10:41:55 AM
Yep, rich. But there is other thing to consider. Richer mixture leads to colder engine. Since it is an air cooled engine, maybe it is better to have them that way than to be clean like other two.
Like I said earlier, they may be also clean because of the vacuum advance from CDI (but the question remains why the other two are so much darker). If it is working on your bike, I think you can't get a proper conclusion from reading spark plugs that way. Pat, Randy, Robert, Noel and Monkey are the people here that might give you better answers than me.

i dont have the vacum advance .I think all plugs are bad 1 and 4 is to lean and 2 and 3 is to rich .It is a little early to be sure that 1 and 4 is to lean i have to drive a little more to See if they get a light brown tan. Its a little strange that the bike runs good .I have the dial a jet system and 2 of the  air mixture adjusting  things is damaged a little . that plus the poor condition of the airbox rubber boots makes things difficult to adjust. So far i have turned the mixture screw in 1 turn on carb 2 and 3.and out a half on 1 and 4 .But that mixture screw is only for idle speed ??
I'm searching for new boots  and think i will throw the dial a jet in the bin if i cant get the engine to run cleaner.I had bought used good condition boots from eBay but when i was going to install them
they did not fit it was for a newer bike than mine.Another thing is that mayby the floats on 2 and 3 is not in right height.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 05, 2019, 10:53:49 AM
The piston has to be below the deck,  you will be fine with two gaskets.

There is not any gasket sealant required on any of the gaskets you are installing. Hell,  you don't need any more lock rite either.

DO NOT use sealants! :ireful:

The oil pan is the last thing to install.  The engine remains stable without it so you can get the barrels install,  head installed and cams properly timed.

Put the pan on and the thing will keep trying to tip over.

Finally,  you need to address the motor mount.

Randy - RPM

I did not use sealant only a little on the clutchcover because it had a deep scratch that have leaked before if i dont use sealant.
I have only used lock tite tread lock on the screws  that the yamaha manual instructs .i used a little on the rodbolts at first because i planned to reuse them ,but later bought new bolt and installed without the loctite on them.
The engine mount collar i did not manage to get lose i tryed many things like torchflame pressing with a puller ,hammering .If i had been more brutal the hole engine mount and enginecase would have cracked off so i stopped.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: racerrad8 on May 05, 2019, 11:03:33 AM
The piston has to be below the deck,  you will be fine with two gaskets.

There is not any gasket sealant required on any of the gaskets you are installing. Hell,  you don't need any more lock rite either.

DO NOT use sealants! :ireful:

The oil pan is the last thing to install.  The engine remains stable without it so you can get the barrels install,  head installed and cams properly timed.

Put the pan on and the thing will keep trying to tip over.

Finally,  you need to address the motor mount.

Randy - RPM

I did not use sealant only a little on the clutchcover because it had a deep scratch that have leaked before if i dont use sealant.
I have only used lock tite tread lock on the screws  that the yamaha manual instructs .i used a little on the rodbolts at first because i planned to reuse them ,but later bought new bolt and installed without the loctite on them.
The engine mount collar i did not manage to get lose i tryed many things like torchflame pressing with a puller ,hammering .If i had been more brutal the hole engine mount and enginecase would have cracked off so i stopped.

We are way past this point of the build, that was so 2 pages ago.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: balky1 on May 05, 2019, 02:31:40 PM
Yep, rich. But there is other thing to consider. Richer mixture leads to colder engine. Since it is an air cooled engine, maybe it is better to have them that way than to be clean like other two.
Like I said earlier, they may be also clean because of the vacuum advance from CDI (but the question remains why the other two are so much darker). If it is working on your bike, I think you can't get a proper conclusion from reading spark plugs that way. Pat, Randy, Robert, Noel and Monkey are the people here that might give you better answers than me.

i dont have the vacum advance .I think all plugs are bad 1 and 4 is to lean and 2 and 3 is to rich .It is a little early to be sure that 1 and 4 is to lean i have to drive a little more to See if they get a light brown tan. Its a little strange that the bike runs good .I have the dial a jet system and 2 of the  air mixture adjusting  things is damaged a little . that plus the poor condition of the airbox rubber boots makes things difficult to adjust. So far i have turned the mixture screw in 1 turn on carb 2 and 3.and out a half on 1 and 4 .But that mixture screw is only for idle speed ??
I'm searching for new boots  and think i will throw the dial a jet in the bin if i cant get the engine to run cleaner.I had bought used good condition boots from eBay but when i was going to install them
they did not fit it was for a newer bike than mine.Another thing is that mayby the floats on 2 and 3 is not in right height.

Until you buy all the bad parts (boots, mixture screws, etc.) put the plugs in and ride. There is no way that you can adjust anything if it is drawing air or fuel or both in the wrong places. Here are the joints: https://www.biketeile-service.de/Yamaha-FJ-1100-21399/en/motorcycleparts/wearparts/carburetorjoints/motorcyclecarburetorjoints/carburetorjointschy12varyamahafj1100fj1200fj1200.html (https://www.biketeile-service.de/Yamaha-FJ-1100-21399/en/motorcycleparts/wearparts/carburetorjoints/motorcyclecarburetorjoints/carburetorjointschy12varyamahafj1100fj1200fj1200.html)


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on May 06, 2019, 09:29:00 AM
The Dial-a-Jet is trash.  Do you have the outlet ports on the airfilter intakes or the boots on the engine side of the carbs?

You'll get much better results with proper jetting and needle position adjustment.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 06, 2019, 09:39:41 AM

[/quote]

Until you buy all the bad parts (boots, mixture screws, etc.) put the plugs in and ride. There is no way that you can adjust anything if it is drawing air or fuel or both in the wrong places. Here are the joints: https://www.biketeile-service.de/Yamaha-FJ-1100-21399/en/motorcycleparts/wearparts/carburetorjoints/motorcyclecarburetorjoints/carburetorjointschy12varyamahafj1100fj1200fj1200.html (https://www.biketeile-service.de/Yamaha-FJ-1100-21399/en/motorcycleparts/wearparts/carburetorjoints/motorcyclecarburetorjoints/carburetorjointschy12varyamahafj1100fj1200fj1200.html)
[/quote]

Balky that is exactly what i vas thinking that it is useless to try to adjust if the boots are bad.Thanks for the link but the boots on cylinderside is only 2 years old so it is the boots on the airfilter side i need.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 06, 2019, 09:50:34 AM
The Dial-a-Jet is trash.  Do you have the outlet ports on the airfilter intakes or the boots on the engine side of the carbs?

You'll get much better results with proper jetting and needle position adjustment.
My dial a jet i think is trash now because i managed to break off some plastic on the airinntake adjuster screw on 2 of the units. The outlet ports is sitting on the airfilter side.
I spoke with a guy who has doing alot of road racing and he sayd that they give a little more power.
Before i removed the motor and broke the dial a jet units plastic  it was running fine and all plugs was light brown color. I have 2 options buy 2 new dial a jet units or throw all of them in the bin.
One thing that i really like is when putting the bike away for thr winterseason it is easy to drain the carbs .I could just keep the drain plugs and  plug the hoses .


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 06, 2019, 10:43:22 AM
See if you can buy just the drain plugs. I would be interested.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 06, 2019, 11:24:19 AM
See if you can buy just the drain plugs. I would be interested.

Hi Pat i dont know what to do yet.I can try to contact the dial a jet sellers and ask if its possible to buy seperate parts.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: balky1 on May 06, 2019, 11:37:40 AM
Reply with Quote
Balky that is exactly what i vas thinking that it is useless to try to adjust if the boots are bad.Thanks for the link but the boots on cylinderside is only 2 years old so it is the boots on the airfilter side i need.

I've linked the boots between air box and carbs. My memory of how they exactly look is vague, but these are definitely not the joints between carbs and head.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 06, 2019, 12:14:27 PM
Okay it is the part numer 14 and 15 on the partdiagram i need.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 06, 2019, 03:30:57 PM
It’s the unmetered air you have to worry about.

Do you have new #1 and #5 intake joints or if reusing your old ones, are they free of cracks and did you use fresh O rings #6 ?

If the air box boots just have holes in them from the crap dial-a-jets, seal those up with duct tape.
If you can find new ones, fine.

Again, it’s the unmetered air leaking in from between the carbs and the head you need to worry about.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: krusty on May 07, 2019, 12:50:36 AM
Sorry if this has already been discussed but I can't recall reading, in this thread, anything so far about a plug chop being done to ascertain fueling mixture at different throttle openings. Is this not done anymore?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 07, 2019, 01:02:29 AM
It’s the unmetered air you have to worry about.

Do you have new #1 and #5 intake joints or if reusing your old ones, are they free of cracks and did you use fresh O rings #6 ?

If the air box boots just have holes in them from the crap dial-a-jets, seal those up with duct tape.
If you can find new ones, fine.

Again, it’s the unmetered air leaking in from between the carbs and the head you need to worry about.

Installed new inn takejoints and O rings in September 2016 .Its a good thing you mention the umetered air because when i think about it i might have forgotten to torque the 8 unbrako screws that
hold the inntakejoints in place.The joints have been mounted all the time while the head has been off and i have working on it,but i  remember i that i loosened the screws because the brackets holding the heat schield was i the way when  wetsanding the headgasket surface.I then mayby only fingertighten the screws.I cant remember that i used the torque wrench on those screws so i guess i managed
to just mount the heatshield and the carbs without torque the screws for the inntake joints  :scratch_one-s_head:.
I will check that but today it is freezing cold and some snow has landed.a few days ago there was 25 degree Celsius hot and now only 1 degree .
Another thing i noticed is that there was wet with gasoline in the hole that the mixture screws sits ,Not sure if it was on all 4 screws have to check that to


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: T Legg on May 07, 2019, 02:16:22 AM
Sorry if this has already been discussed but I can't recall reading, in this thread, anything so far about a plug chop being done to ascertain fueling mixture at different throttle openings. Is this not done anymore?
That was the method I used when I set up my mikuni rs-36 carbs.The fj spark plugs are so easy to get to that I could pull them on the side of the road to look and have the bike back running in ten minutes.I run mine tan a little towards the rich side,it doesn't hurt the power but maybe increases fuel consumption.I also picked two markers on a section of road and accelerated from about 45mph to the next marker to gauge which main jet produced the most power.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: balky1 on May 07, 2019, 07:54:02 AM
Okay it is the part numer 14 and 15 on the partdiagram i need.

Yes, I know and I linked those. Compare the pic with the ones you have (removed). Or just install UniPods.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 07, 2019, 08:12:29 AM
Okay it is the part numer 14 and 15 on the partdiagram i need.

Yes, I know and I linked those. Compare the pic with the ones you have (removed). Or just install UniPods.

Okay then i dont know what is wrong because when i click the link  find only the inntake rubberboots for the cylinderside of carbs and they are the 74 kilowatt 100 hp restrickted horsepower versions.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 07, 2019, 08:14:33 AM
Sorry if this has already been discussed but I can't recall reading, in this thread, anything so far about a plug chop being done to ascertain fueling mixture at different throttle openings. Is this not done anymore?

to be honest i have not heard about this .But i have googled it now and its intersting mayby i try it !


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 07, 2019, 11:13:49 AM
To get accurate plug readings disconnect the vacuum advance. (remember to plug the vacuum line)

If not, when you close (chop) those throttle plates, the vacuum advance will advance the ignition timing up to 50* which will flash off the plugs and give you a false lean reading. (white plugs)

Here is the timing curve for the 1100’s the same applies to the 1200’s. The lower line is the timing at low vacuum with throttle open...the upper line is high vacuum with throttle plates closed. (Remember the vacuum signal comes from between the throttle plates and the cylinders)

(http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad337/craigo987/FJ11001984ServiceManual269-1.jpg)


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 07, 2019, 12:04:38 PM
Thanks Pat but i dont think i have a vacuum advance on my bike ?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: balky1 on May 07, 2019, 02:07:57 PM
Thanks Pat but i dont think i have a vacuum advance on my bike ?


Ad 1: If you have a vacuum hose going from No. 2 intake boot (cylinder side) to the CDI, you have the advance (if it is working; try sucking - if you can suck air from CDI it is broken and disconnect it, plug it off on the intake boot).
Ad 2: This is not the picture you get when you click on my link? (http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/4914_07_05_19_2_00_13.jpeg)

Disregard the 100 PS marking. In Germany all bikes were restricted to 100 PS and hence they state it as that. If you really get a picture of intake boots on head side, they are also not restricted (says so in the description if you read it). And I've bought them and installed them (cylinder side boots) and there is no restriction in them.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: RPM - Robert on May 07, 2019, 03:34:20 PM
Picture looks right but the part number is for the intake manifolds at the head.

The part numbers he wants 36Y-14463-00-00 & 36Y-14453-00-00

Maybe this is what he is talking about, but IDK.

The restriction is in the side against the head, more specifically only the side that is against the head. Instead of 36 mm it was something like 28mm but the carb side was still 36mm to accept the carb outlet.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 07, 2019, 06:30:55 PM
I remember last year or so, someone posting about a Japanese restricted model where, in addition to the intake boots as Robert mentions above, there was also a restriction on the air box boots.

Edit: Found it...it wasn’t the airbox boots that were restricted but the air horn that feeds the filter box.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18050.msg181876#msg181876 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18050.msg181876#msg181876)



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: balky1 on May 08, 2019, 09:43:06 AM
Picture looks right but the part number is for the intake manifolds at the head.

The part numbers he wants 36Y-14463-00-00 & 36Y-14453-00-00

Maybe this is what he is talking about, but IDK.

The restriction is in the side against the head, more specifically only the side that is against the head. Instead of 36 mm it was something like 28mm but the carb side was still 36mm to accept the carb outlet.

Aha, I didn't look at the part numbers. Sending e-mail can't hurt if he really needs them. Could have already been solved.  :sarcastic:

Again, intake boots they sell (at least the ones they used to sell last year when I bought mine) are not restricted. And that fact is also written in the description (in German-English, but it is possible to understand it  :pardon:).


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 12, 2019, 09:01:35 AM
update the break in and tuning continues not had so much time riding.I have been trying to adjust the fuelmixture
turning the mixture screw on cyl 1 and 4 a little out to get richer and cyl 2 and 4 a little in to get them leaner.
So far the plugs looks better and the bike also feels better.
After i run the bike a little higher in rpm It started to get a little ticking noise again so i adjusted the exhaust valves a little tighter and the noise is gone.I have a theory that since the exhaust camlobes on cylinder 1 was worn over limit when i measured them in the winter
the valves on cyl one has to be adjusted a little tighter to not tick.I'm going to replace the exhaustcam i think.
I found out that its possible to remove and install the valvecover and gasket without removing the choke and gas cable.
The bike has now rolled almost 800 kilometers and I'm going to replace the oilfilter and oil


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 12, 2019, 09:11:44 AM
Today i have changed the oil and oilfilter .The magnet on drainplug had a layer of metal particles not sure if it is a normal amount.
I could see metalparticles in the oil when draining from the little drainhole in oilfilter casing.The oilfilter was also more black than normal.
Then when i had finished the oilchange and was going to take a long ride i discovered that she thanks me by leaking oil from right side  front valvecover the gasket has splitted and bulging out.So the oil is
dripping right on my header  :smile:

here is a vid of the metalparticles https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zjaqplhis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zjaqplhis)


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 14, 2019, 03:45:31 AM
If anyone planning to rebuild the engine and wonder what has ben replaced in the engine here is a list:I had made a list with all the partnumbers but cant find it.
And let me add that if i can rebuild a engine  everyone can do it and its really fun if you like wrenching like me.
Most parts was bought from RPM thanks for great service !

Carburettor allenhead screw and oringsets RPM sell this great sets
1 Engine gasket set
16 valvestem seals
some of the valves that was to pitted to just lap
some shims
4 cylinder sleves
4 exhaust gaskets
4 pistons almost like new from ebay
4 set of pistonrings
2 copper washers for left side cyl head
connection rod bolts and nuts
connecting rod bearings
wristpin circlips 8
front - rear and top camchain guides
camchain
camchain tensioner (last summer )
crankshaft bearings
oilseals bithe sides on crankshaft in the crankcase
starterchain
starterclutch springs and steelballs
starter clutch rubber cushions
starterclutch seals
starterclutch rollerbearing
starterclutch oil jet nozzle short type xjr1300
Complete transmission changed for a almost unused one from ebay from the same engine as i bought the pistons
Longer and stronger shiftforks from the ebay transmission
Shift shaft from ebay transmission
clutch pushrod also from the ebay trasnmission.
seal transmission output shaft
Roller detent shift lever kit (recomended the shifting feels better now)
oil pump and gear and little snapring
oil pickup screen
oilseals crankcase shiftshaft
3 o rings oilpump
orange o ring center of cases
o ring neutral switch
o rings oilcooler
o ring starter motor
o ring and seal generator
o rings for the 2 oilpressure relief valves.
Oil seal starter motor
1 cylinder head gasket
2 cylinder base gasket
valvecover gasket this was not genuine and has now started to leak
some dowelpins cylinder headwas replaced
2 green o rings cylinder head
sparkplugs
airfilter
oilfilter and new o ring and little copper washer for drainscrew
crankcase breather hose
all bearings and collar clutch
all fiber and steelplates plates in the clutch
clutchbasket
clutch hub lock washer
2 shift shaft seals in front sprocket cover
seal clutch pushrod

work that has been done:
carburetors replaced all o rings and small screws plus cleaned.
I cut the valveseats with a neway valveseat cutter
lapped and adjusted valves
installed new cylindeersleeves and then sent the cylinder to a machineshop for boring -honing then milled the surface.
sanded cylinder head surface
everything checked and measured as the workshop manual instructs.
assembly of the engine.



Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: T Legg on May 14, 2019, 04:15:47 AM
How much do you think you spent?It looks like I may have to tear down my engine to fix it although since I still have good compression I hope I don't need to replace the cylinder sleeves or pistons.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on May 14, 2019, 04:30:49 AM
How much do you think you spent?It looks like I may have to tear down my engine to fix it although since I still have good compression I hope I don't need to replace the cylinder sleeves or pistons.


I have not dared to see how much i spent yet  :mocking: .it would be cheeper to buy a god condition used engine but i like wrenching and wanted to find out what was making bad noises so i decided to rebuild the engine.
If you have good compression and not burning oil you can try to split the engine without removing the pistons out of the cylinderbores.because once you have taken the pistons out you MUST  buy new rings and hone the cylinders or else you get a oilburner  .Im not 100% sure about this but thats what i heard


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: T Legg on May 14, 2019, 04:51:22 AM
I added up all the receipts from motorcycle parts I have bought in the last two and a half years on my two fj's and my cb-750 .clutch  parts carburetor parts tires brake and clutch master cylinder repair kits missing pieces like the headlight adjusters inside panels of the air scoops gauge sets and lots of cables.It all adds up to $ 5,800.00 US.I was surprised how much I have spent but I dont regret it. If I take my engine apart I definetly want to replace the rings and hone it.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on June 21, 2019, 07:39:16 AM
Here are some more update on how its going with my FJ.
Have now replaced the exhaust camshaft .I did it because i had to much ticking noise coming from NR 1 cylinder
exhaust valves.I located the noise with a cheep electronic stethoscope.First i adjusted the valves tighter
that the spec in the manual and that did quiet the valves ,but driving with tight valves is not good so i decided
that i try to replace the exhaust camshaft.
when i rebuilt the engine last winter and measured the camshafts i found that the 2 lobes on exhaust cam cylinder 1
was worn a little over the limit in the manual.I also replaced the shimbuckets on cyl 1 exhaust because they looked
brown and worn.
It is possible to replace the camshaft without the hassle with pulling out the carbs and camchaintensioner.I did that
by using ziptie
on the intakecam sprocket so the camchain can not slip also a piece of wood on the backside of the sprocket.,and a
wire that tightening up the camchain on exhaust side .Before this i checked that the the timingmarks
on pickupcoil and the dots in the camchain was ok ,then used wire on the pickupcoil so the crank was locked and can
not rotate.
Then marked the camsprocket and chain on the old exhaustcam with paint to get it back on at the same place and get
the timing right.Then i removed the old exhaustcam and then the marked sprocket and placed the old  camsprocket on
the new exhaustcam .


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on June 21, 2019, 02:06:01 PM
second oil change 2000 kilometers
Update the engine has now passed 2000km it runs great and have good power (much better than before) and use about 0.6 deciliter 98octane on 10 kilometers driving.
on this oil change it was a little less metalshavings on the drainplug magnet but mayby more than i should be??.
I decided to change the oil from semisynthetic yamalube 10w-40  to full synthetic yamalube 15w-50 but that did not work well.When i took a ride afterwards the engine got really hot much hotter than before.I could feel the heat flowing out while riding and also the bike was surging and i felt like the engine was going to seize up.
when engine was stopped it made a hissing noise smelt burned paint and made many pinging noises when coling down.
the next day i bought new oil yamalube mineral 20w-50 .When i took a little 5 minutes ride just to make the engine a little hot to drain the oil the engine again got superhot !.I had to wait with draining the oil.
Now after i filled her with the 20w-50 oil the engine runs cool again and i can lay may hand on the clutchcover
for some seconds without gettin burned like when using the full synthetic oil .
at youtube yamalube says that older bikes can use this oil ??
i know many have full synthetic oil in the fj but on mine the fullsynt yamalube did not work.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Motofun on June 21, 2019, 03:26:34 PM
You may be over thinking the oil issue.  While friction is a contributor it's much less than richness or air temp or speed (ie cooling).  I've never worried about the oil I use, just make sure it's reasonably fresh and of appropriate viscosity and you should be good to go.  I don't know what to make of the particulates on your magnet.  Looks like a lot.


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Sparky84 on June 21, 2019, 04:05:53 PM


Now after i filled her with the 20w-50 oil the engine runs cool again and i can lay may hand on the clutchcover
for some seconds without gettin burned like when using the full synthetic oil .

Man, I wouldn’t have thought there would be that much difference between those oils.
There is a fair bit of metal on that drain plug, what’s the go there?


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on June 22, 2019, 07:38:23 AM
I don't know why the engine got so hot with the yamalube 15w-50 full synthetic.I looked at the yamalube video on
youtube and since the lady there say that older yamaha motorcycles could use that oil i gave it a try.
The fully synthetic also have ester added it works like a magnet and stick to every metalpart and create a
protecting coating don't know if that is true but sounds great.
The man at the yamaha service shop says that he had rebuilt several motorcycle engines many older types and he
would not use that oil if it was his bike and says that 10w-40 mineral or semisynt
was the best for a FJ.I told him about the youtube commercial and i wanted to try the full synthetic.
The next day when i came back i told him he was right and that my engine got superheated :blush:
One thing i dont understand is that he says that fully synthetic oil is much thinner than mineral.I also taught that
so i did a test i used 2 clear plastic cups and drilled 3 micro small holes i the bottom of the cups.
then i pored same amount of the mineral 20w-50 and 15w-50 fully synthetic in the cups.
first test was room temperature on the oils and the synthetic drained out a little faster than the mineral.
then i heated the oil to 100 degree Celsius and did the same test.Now the oils flow much faster but surprisingly
the fully synthetic drained a little slower than the mineral. so that shows that the full synthetic is a little
thicker that the mineral when hot!! I filmed both test with my camera .I mayby upload the test to youtube.
I don't like the metal particles on the drainplug but it is less than first oilchange so hoping it is OK.
One thing i did wrong is that i waited waaay to long with the first oilchange at 800kilometers.
link to yamalube on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlNw4wPezG4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlNw4wPezG4)


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on July 08, 2019, 01:54:26 AM
So here is another update of how its going with the bike hope its not to boring
Bike has now been driven 3400 kilometers and i have done the third oilchange. I was not hoping to see metaldust on
the drainplug this time , but it was some this time also .It is less than it was on second oilchange.I guess it normal when
almost everything is new inside engine and i have also replaced exhaustcamshaft since second oilchange.
In the oil filtercase i found some particles they was non magnetic and none metallick it looks like black rubber or
plasticflakes and also some grey flakes.Mayby its from the chainsliders or mayby its flaking from pistonrings ???
I I'm not so satisfied with the engine rebuild that i was hoping fore.Because the engine now has started to make a
ticking noise again i have adjusted the valves tighter to mayby make it more quiet but did not help much.

The engine has god compression does not smoke and is not burning oil and  using  normal amount of fuel.It has very god power too.
so i don't know what the ticking can bee .I'm thinking mayby its the oilpump that is not able to keep up the
oilpressure when engine gets real hot .The ticking only shows up when engine is hot and is more loud riding downhill
with throttle closed
the engine also make a noise like a machinegun mayby its a ignition knock ??
her are link to video of the oilchange https://youtu.be/wpoBrKBL898  (https://youtu.be/wpoBrKBL898)
also a video of the engine noise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjbtLkKWkF4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjbtLkKWkF4)


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on July 08, 2019, 07:45:41 AM
Yeah i forgot to mention... take a look on the video at the headerpipes that i carefully painted with 2 different hi temp paints first a barbeque paint 1200 degreee celsius and on top of that another black gloss hi temp paint. I also tested the paint with a heatgun blowing inside the headers for 15 minutes and i hold up to the heat, but once the header was mounted on the FJ the paint could not stand up to
the beast :biggrin:


Title: Re: Splitting the cases
Post by: Old Rider on July 15, 2019, 01:12:24 PM
Today i did change the oil for the forth time at 4000 kilometers .I had planned to wait longer since i did a oilchange at 3400 kilometers but then i found that it is gasoline in the oil because of a
stuck carburetorfloat.More about that in this tread :http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18788.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18788.0)
The drainplug has a little less particles on the magnet and the oilfilterhousing also got less particles this time.