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General Category => FJ Project Writeups => Topic started by: aviationfred on January 07, 2019, 11:41:17 PM



Title: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: aviationfred on January 07, 2019, 11:41:17 PM
I have begun the repairs on my FJ that caught fire during my vacation to South Carolina and Florida. The carbs are on their way to RPM for a good cleaning and going through. :yahoo: The actual damage is much less than I thought. :dance: The only factory wire damage is at the red circle in the photo. The only severe damage was to the oil level sensor/Neutral switch indicator wires. The green connector in the photo, the wires lay under the UNI pods and route behind the engine (red circle). The black plastic sheething in the red circle area as you can see is completely melted and fused to the wires. The heat shield shows the most heat damage at the left rear. I believe that this is where the fire began. A chafed wire... built up chain lube.... catches fire....ignited oiled UNI pods.... melts fuel line at the under tank fuel filter... :pardon: :unknown:

There really isn't any more damage other than the right fairing infill panel.



Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: ZOA NOM on January 08, 2019, 07:41:54 AM
Thank God you acted quickly and were in the right place.


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: aviationfred on January 08, 2019, 09:09:47 AM
I am considering ordering one of these to keep in my top box.  :flag_of_truce:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Lightweight-Household-Car-Use-Powder-Fire-Extinguisher-for-Hotel-AH-/254025707428?skus=Color:blue&varId=553364343362 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Lightweight-Household-Car-Use-Powder-Fire-Extinguisher-for-Hotel-AH-/254025707428?skus=Color:blue&varId=553364343362)


Fred


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: Tuned forks on January 08, 2019, 07:06:33 PM
Considering our bikes reputation for self-immolation, that seems like a really good idea.  How fast can you get into your box in an emergency situation Referring to an adrenaline fueled moment when we revert to caveman instincts.  I know I'm not fast getting into the hard luggage.  Except for theft, I'd like to mount something like that to the outside of the bike.

Joe


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: ZOA NOM on January 08, 2019, 10:54:37 PM
I barely had time to grab my tank bag. If it had been strapped on instead of just magnets, I wouldn't have been able to. That said, I really wish I had one when mine burned down. The worst feeling is standing there watching it burn, helpless.


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: aviationfred on January 08, 2019, 11:27:47 PM
I really wish I had one when mine burned down. The worst feeling is standing there watching it burn, helpless.


Having seen the photos of your FJ and the aftermath, Your mishap actually entered my mind as I ran into the Restaurant.


Fred


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: balky1 on January 09, 2019, 01:15:09 AM
I am considering ordering one of these to keep in my top box.  :flag_of_truce:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Lightweight-Household-Car-Use-Powder-Fire-Extinguisher-for-Hotel-AH-/254025707428?skus=Color:blue&varId=553364343362 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Lightweight-Household-Car-Use-Powder-Fire-Extinguisher-for-Hotel-AH-/254025707428?skus=Color:blue&varId=553364343362)


Fred

Just an advice, buy such things only in US stores. That way you can (probably) be sure it complies to the neccessary standards and that it is safe. After all, it is a pressurized container and I believe you have some regulations in the US that monitor such things.


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: ribbert on January 09, 2019, 06:06:39 AM

...... I believe that this is where the fire began. A chafed wire... built up chain lube.... catches fire....ignited oiled UNI pods....




Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: TexasDave on January 09, 2019, 06:28:18 AM

...... I believe that this is where the fire began. A chafed wire... built up chain lube.... catches fire....ignited oiled UNI pods....



Fred you wouldn't need a fire extinguisher with a Triumph Tiger. They have fuel injection and don't catch fire. Just sayin..........   :yes:   :biggrin:

Dave



Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: racerrad8 on January 09, 2019, 07:08:15 AM
Fred,

Is is your belief those wires chaffed and caused the source of ignition?

The reason I ask is because those two sensor wires are grounding circuits that illuminate the specific warning light. If either of those two wires chaffed and contacted each other or the case, you would have only had a dash warming light stuck on.

Once we get the carbs and perform an autopsy, maybe the source can be determined. I recall you saying in one of the original posts, the engine was missing when you pulled into the parking lot. That and the running issues just prior to departing on the trip is in my opinion pointing to fuel flooding out of a carb or two.

We will be very methodical in diagnosing the carbs when they are disassembled.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: aviationfred on January 09, 2019, 07:24:25 AM
Fred,

Is is your belief those wires chaffed and caused the source of ignition?

The reason I ask is because those two sensor wires are grounding circuits that illuminate the specific warning light. If either of those two wires chaffed and contacted each other or the case, you would have only had a dash warming light stuck on.

Once we get the carbs and perform an autopsy, maybe the source can be determined. I recall you saying in one of the original posts, the engine was missing when you pulled into the parking lot. That and the running issues just prior to departing on the trip is in my opinion pointing to fuel flooding out of a carb or two.

We will be very methodical in diagnosing the carbs when they are disassembled.

Randy - RPM


The source and cause of ignition is really guess work on my part. I am trying to work on an educated guess from the damage that I am finding while doing repairs and the location of the most damage. The worst wiring damage is located in the fed circle of the posted photo. Also that is the same location that all of the carb overflow hoses were routed. I left the hoses attached for the carbs. You will be able to see the heat damage on the hoses.



Fred


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: ZOA NOM on January 09, 2019, 10:18:09 AM
I really wish I had one when mine burned down. The worst feeling is standing there watching it burn, helpless.


Having seen the photos of your FJ and the aftermath, Your mishap actually entered my mind as I ran into the Restaurant.


Fred

Well, if I can save just one FJ's life, it's all been worth it!


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: Pat Conlon on January 09, 2019, 12:30:19 PM
Rick, remind me, you split a fuel line at the fuel filter, correct?


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: ribbert on January 10, 2019, 04:28:57 AM

The source and cause of ignition is really guess work on my part......

Fred

Fred, I'd be surprised if anything other than fuel/fuel vapour could ignite down there, it would need a spark to set it off and the alternator is the most likely source for that. Hot engines, hot exhaust pipes, hot wires won't do it.

The engine stumbling just beforehand sort of adds weight to carbs flooding.

Noel


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: Firehawk068 on January 10, 2019, 09:38:09 AM
I would agree with Noel.
Fuel is actually very hard to ignite without a spark. A hot engine will not ignite Gasoline.
There has been a few instances where I had fuel pour/spray directly onto my just-turned-off FJ engine. It simply boils off and flashes into vapor instantly. No spark + No Ignition.
Built-up lube/oil is absolutely impossible to ignite...............You could have it dripping directly on the hot exhaust of a running engine for days and it would not ignite (I have actual real-world experience with this)
Unless you have an open flame, you will not light any oil/lube on fire. A spark will not ignite it either.

You would've had to have fuel overflowing from somewhere, flashed into vapor from the hot engine, and an actual spark from either: a live power wire shorting to ground, a spark-plug wire arcing outside it's insulation, or as Noel said, the alternator (there is sometimes some arcing at the brushes during operation)


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: Old Rider on January 10, 2019, 10:48:16 AM
My guess is there was a backfire trough the carb that set the podfilter on fire.


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on January 10, 2019, 05:35:12 PM
I doubt this is the case on Fred's FJ, but if the main ground wire has a bad connection, I've seen sparks around the shifter lever pivot shaft as ground from the engine finds a path through the shifter linkage back to the frame.


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: aviationfred on January 10, 2019, 06:42:17 PM
I have used this type of heat shrink/solder tube on aircraft for decades. Recently I have seen these advertised on Facebook and bought the small kit. I am giving these a try on a few of the wire repairs.

https://sharperday.com/products/necs-waterproof-solder-wire-connectors


Fred


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: ZOA NOM on January 10, 2019, 06:44:13 PM
Rick, remind me, you split a fuel line at the fuel filter, correct?

Correct. The filter was not a Yamaha, and the nipple was slightly large. I'll never know for certain if that was the source of the fire since it turned into a puddle, but I know it was an issue I had planned to address. I put it on a back burner, if you will, but apparently the burner was left on!


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: jscgdunn on January 11, 2019, 12:39:49 PM
I have used this type of heat shrink/solder tube on aircraft for decades. Recently I have seen these advertised on Facebook and bought the small kit. I am giving these a try on a few of the wire repairs.

https://sharperday.com/products/necs-waterproof-solder-wire-connectors


Fred

Yes these are awesome.....by far the best for joining wires....


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: aviationfred on January 14, 2019, 04:59:46 PM
An update... The carbs have been sent to RPM. I have been informed that the choke circuit has been jacked up and probably helped in causing my poor gas mileage, idle adjustment issues, and could have contributed to the fire.  :ireful:

I have also located and ordered replacement parts that were damaged in the fire. All of the parts were sourced from Germany and England. Since I have removed the ABS function, I specifically searched for side panels that had the ABS absent.

While searching, I came across an oil cooler for sale that looked familiar. Upon closer look, it appears to be a RPM oil cooler with the black fittings. I grabbed it and will install it since the bike is down.

I also ordered a fire extinguisher to carry on the bike.

Fred


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: Tuned forks on January 14, 2019, 06:49:24 PM
I'd like to see a pic of that fire extinguisher next to an item we know the size of, like your bike, hand, tape measure, etc.  Please.

Joe


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: aviationfred on January 14, 2019, 08:12:39 PM
I'd like to see a pic of that fire extinguisher next to an item we know the size of, like your bike, hand, tape measure, etc.  Please.

Joe


As soon as it arrives, I will post a photo


Fred


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: ZOA NOM on January 14, 2019, 09:39:45 PM
I'd like to see a pic of that fire extinguisher next to an item we know the size of, like your bike, hand, tape measure, etc.  Please.

Joe

Come on, man... you got a googler?

(https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fblog-imgs-31-origin.fc2.com%2Fs%2Fa%2Fn%2Fsanshimai3%2F20090304112257.jpg&f=1)


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: Tuned forks on January 14, 2019, 10:11:07 PM
Looks to be about 14" or so.

Joe


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: Capn Ron on January 15, 2019, 03:06:40 AM
I am considering ordering one of these to keep in my top box.  :flag_of_truce:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Lightweight-Household-Car-Use-Powder-Fire-Extinguisher-for-Hotel-AH-/254025707428?skus=Color:blue&varId=553364343362 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-Lightweight-Household-Car-Use-Powder-Fire-Extinguisher-for-Hotel-AH-/254025707428?skus=Color:blue&varId=553364343362)


Fred


I have about six of these on the sailboat, one (and a larger one) in the rock crawler, and was carrying one on the FJ for years after a fellow rider had a huge fuel leak on the side of the road.  “When the place is on fire, no one has ever wished for fewer fire extinguishers.”


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: Capn Ron on January 15, 2019, 03:28:19 AM
I have used this type of heat shrink/solder tube on aircraft for decades. Recently I have seen these advertised on Facebook and bought the small kit. I am giving these a try on a few of the wire repairs.

https://sharperday.com/products/necs-waterproof-solder-wire-connectors


Fred

I swear by similar connectors.  When I first bought my sailboat, every foot of every wire was corroded.  I tore it all out and replaced all of it with high-strand, tinned wire and adhesive-sealed shrink connectors from Ancor Marine.  A fellow sailor told me that it was impossible to get more than a few years out of the wire in the salt environment and he’d tried “everything”.  I did that massive re-wiring job 21 years ago...not a hint of failure anywhere to this day.  When the life of me and my passengers may depend on everything going right, I’m not having to chase electrical gremlins.  My rock crawler is wired the same way...for the same reasons.


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: Capn Ron on January 15, 2019, 03:33:42 AM

There has been a few instances where I had fuel pour/spray directly onto my just-turned-off FJ engine. It simply boils off and flashes into vapor instantly. No spark + No Ignition.


I was there for one of them...thus my above commentary about fire extinguishers!  Yep...Not at all easy to ignite, but man if it ever did!!


Title: Re: Repair of the Christmas roasted FJ
Post by: aviationfred on January 15, 2019, 07:31:37 AM
Randy has found some major problems with the carbs.  :shok: :cray:

The choke circuit and mechanical are jacked up. Definitely the cause of my poor gas mileage over the last 17 months. The float levels were out and allowing too much fuel into the bowls. He also found some ham fisted maintenance from previous owner(s). I am the 4th owner. A fuel pump was connected to the carb bank, the #2,3, and 4 carbs filled with full and stopped when the floats came up. The #1 carb stayed open and had fuel pouring out of the throat. The photos are of the #1 carb showing the fuel pouring out and a bit of bad maintenance.  :ireful: :sorry:

Fred