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General Category => Yamaha FJ1100 / FJ1200 Running Problems => Topic started by: THXFJ1200 on June 11, 2019, 12:14:29 AM



Title: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 11, 2019, 12:14:29 AM
Been reading a lot, and seams a way to go I check for clutch hydraulics and pushrod or lever issues.
I had the feeling before on load the bike to rev up repeatedly, But I think I was in 2nd gear how would I distinguish a second gear shifting issue from a clutch slipping in second gear?? I guess you get into third gear and throttle up again WOT.
Been serious I don't think I have the [email protected] to WOT this beast... That's my bad. This time it happened with more load than usual. But the next time I rode it the shifting was hard very hard.
Almost impossible to find neutral in the lights. I know some people never get back into neutral but I tell you the clutch grabbing I think it could pull me in gear any time... It was weird.
So I bought the detent kit from RPM and I am willing to go the extra mile if the clutch needs "preventive work as well.

Is it possible that the clutch slips in one circumstance and drags in others? Would that lead to some clear diagnosis?
WHat would be my first move? Change the oil? I do remember as the oil got warmer I think the shifting improved, but then the cops stopped me having no insurance... me bad I just got cut into the try out here my motorcycle is in trouble, lol... big ticket, the dude was not receptive...

So thats it I have a shifting issue and the rpm detent shifting kit a hand what should I do next?










??


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: krusty on June 11, 2019, 05:09:05 AM
Been reading a lot, and seams a way to go I check for clutch hydraulics and pushrod or lever issues.
I had the feeling before on load the bike to rev up repeatedly, But I think I was in 2nd gear how would I distinguish a second gear shifting issue from a clutch slipping in second gear?? I guess you get into third gear and throttle up again WOT.
Been serious I don't think I have the [email protected] to WOT this beast... That's my bad. This time it happened with more load than usual. But the next time I rode it the shifting was hard very hard.
Almost impossible to find neutral in the lights. I know some people never get back into neutral but I tell you the clutch grabbing I think it could pull me in gear any time... It was weird.
So I bought the detent kit from RPM and I am willing to go the extra mile if the clutch needs "preventive work as well.

Is it possible that the clutch slips in one circumstance and drags in others? Would that lead to some clear diagnosis?
WHat would be my first move? Change the oil? I do remember as the oil got warmer I think the shifting improved, but then the cops stopped me having no insurance... me bad I just got cut into the try out here my motorcycle is in trouble, lol... big ticket, the dude was not receptive...

So thats it I have a shifting issue and the rpm detent shifting kit a hand what should I do next?










??
From what you are describing I would be having a real close look at the hydraulic system. When was the system last serviced? Have you checked the fluid level in the master cylinder reservoir? Have you had to top it up lately. Check around the slave cylinder for signs of fluid leakage, same for the master cylinder.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: ryanschoebel on June 11, 2019, 09:19:43 AM
+1 to Krusty.   I had similar issues to what you are describing on my 85, and it turned out to be a leaking slave. Rebuild kit from RPM, and good as new. Bleeding was a bitch though. I don't envy you that!


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: red on June 11, 2019, 09:38:47 AM
+1 to Krusty.   I had similar issues to what you are describing on my 85, and it turned out to be a leaking slave. Rebuild kit from RPM, and good as new. Bleeding was a bitch though. I don't envy you that!
THXFJ1200,

I would agree.  As for bleeding the clutch, you might want to try:

http://www.speedbleeder.com/ (http://www.speedbleeder.com/)

If they have the item needed for your 1200, it makes bleeding (anything) very much easier.  Get the optional tube and catch bag, too; it helps a lot.



Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 11, 2019, 11:42:08 AM
Thanks for the replies guys, I have not taken a look yet to the hydraulics, I will as soon as I get time, I did order yesterday a new clutch spring and the rpm pack with 7 wide discs... just to refresh the clutch internals a little bit.
I will check the slave cylinder and rebuild if necessary. I have no idea when was the last time it got any attention, the PO didn't give me that info.

Hey Red, I do have some sort of pressure bleeder DIY equipment that could be useful. Do you have any idea what thread/size of these bleeders would be needed in order to bleed the clutch slave or master cylinder?

I think I  will need to start reading the Clymer's manual now. organizing ideas and taking in where everything is etc.

Thanks for the advice, I will get back to you once I take a look.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on June 11, 2019, 02:26:38 PM
I think you have 2 problems.

First, a hydraulic issue either in the slave or master cylinder that is not allowing the clutch to disengage all the way.  That's causing the dragging, hard to shift and hard to find neutral.

The revving up repeatedly under load in 2nd gear is the "2nd gear issue."  That being worn engagement dogs and/or bent shift fork.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 12, 2019, 12:15:04 AM
 :Facepalm: session ended just when my post was complete and I was trying to review it. Damn, lost the whole thing.

I agree with Red, two problems:

1- Clutch Hydraulic issues: (see attached pictures, where there is obvious leak and the oil filter cover has lost its paint ))
First, order RPM slave rebuild kit and bleed the clutch, any advice or tutorials handy? it sounds like no fun. I will try one of them sped-bleeders if I can find out the size and thread of the bleeder in the slave cylinder.

2- Infamous "second gear issue" or clutch slipping in second gear... not sure... for this I decided:
  First: Install RPM shifter detent kit and since the clutch needs to get out I will change the clutch pack for the RPM pack (removing thin disk and chatter clip and substituting it for the full-size 7th disk.)
  Second: Change oil and filter. Any suggestions here? My bike is under 70xxxkm. parts on their way here!

After this I will try to go and make second gear jump off by throttle it under load, I hope its all good, the PO did mention that the PO before him told him that "the second gear issue has been taken care off". Also, I have heard these bikes shifter forks are harder to bend. But maybe the gears are just having the problem and the fork is holding... Anyways one thing at the time!

The guy in the FJ info page says that 20-50 w mineral oil, SG rated is a good choice, for me maybe thinner since my temperatures are not hot. I am very much open to suggestions!
He also mentions "RPM Spin on oil filter conversion" as something good to have in order to change the filter easily?

So, for now, I will get the slave cylinder kit and the oil filter conversion kit, with the oil filter I guess...
By Robert in RPM suggestion maybe the clutch washers... is there anything else I would need to buy to make these changes happen?

Thanks a lot for all the replies and I really hope to see some of you in the next WCR.
2 wheels down, summertime!  :hi:


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: RPM - Robert on June 12, 2019, 08:44:26 AM

After this I will try to go and make second gear jump off by throttle it under load, I hope its all good, the PO did mention that the PO before him told him that "the second gear issue has been taken care off". Also, I have heard these bikes shifter forks are harder to bend. But maybe the gears are just having the problem and the fork is holding... Anyways one thing at the time!

So, for now, I will get the slave cylinder kit and the oil filter conversion kit, with the oil filter I guess...
By Robert in RPM suggestion maybe the clutch washers... is there anything else I would need to buy to make these changes happen?



By Robert in RPM suggestion maybe the clutch washers... Clutch Hub Lock Washer (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=90215-25218)

As for the second gear issue. The 92 did come with stronger shift forks, however, if one of the PO missed shifts and abused the transmission. Which sounds to be the case if "the second gear issue has been taken care of" The shift fork will begin to bend ever so slightly with abuse. This in turn will begin to round the engagement point in the gear and the cog off, which in turn will cause it to pop out of gear more, which in turn bends the shift forks more. Do you see where i'm going with this? The problem only gets worse and worse until repaired. You can baby foot around it if there is an issue but you need to take it easy in second gear and make sure you have positive shift engagement (shift it hard with your foot, you do more damage trying to soft foot shift it and not engaging the gears all the way)

The forks are not harder they are actually a bit longer than the early model shift forks.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: red on June 12, 2019, 10:11:44 AM
Thanks for the replies guys,
Hey Red, Do you have any idea what thread/size of these bleeders would be needed in order to bleed the clutch slave or master cylinder?
I think I  will need to start reading the Clymer's manual now. organizing ideas and taking in where everything is etc.
Thanks for the advice, I will get back to you once I take a look.
THXFJ1200,

Speedbleeders.com knew what would fit everything on my other bikes, so give them a call or email.  They are very friendly and helpful.

There are lots of tech write-ups here that can help with FJ maintenance.  If a Search does not find what you need, ask here and somebody will probably jump in with the right link for you.

HTH.
.



Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 12, 2019, 05:08:12 PM

Thanks Robert, I hear you, I will make the choice for the positive shifting, I read that after the detent kit is in place this happens more naturally... still will put some load in second just to make an assessment on how it behaves with the new clutch unit and mods, I am a light rider so I will need to double someone and try to replicate what happened that last time.
If it does not jump off, and let's say there is no "second gear issue", then what? Should I still do some work in there as preventive maintenance for it not to happen in the future, or just been observant and cautious of engaging positively second gear every time should suffice? On the other hand, split the case and undercut the dogs or something like that I have read in the threads? It sounds like a big job! :nea:

Red: I already sent an email to speed bleeders, but still would like to hear from you guys here, how many bleeders would I need for the clutch job? I can see one in the slave cylinder, any other I should be aware of?
I would also buy some of them for my front brakes in order to use them in the future if I have to do some front brake improvements,

I am going down there now to take a closer look and maybe remove the slave cylinder.

Thank you all.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: red on June 12, 2019, 06:28:53 PM
Red: I already sent an email to speed bleeders, but still would like to hear from you guys here, how many bleeders would I need for the clutch job? I can see one in the slave cylinder, any other I should be aware of?
I would also buy some of them for my front brakes in order to use them in the future if I have to do some front brake improvements,
I am going down there now to take a closer look and maybe remove the slave cylinder.
Thank you all.
THXFJ1200,

You should have one for the slave cylinder, and a Speedbleeder to replace each one on the calipers. 

In addition, now they make replacement banjo bolts with bleed fittings in the head, so now you can bleed each master cylinder at the TOP of the hydraulic line.  What an idea!  I do not know what Speedbleeder those banjo bolts would need, but if they do not know, I would send one to Speedbleeders and let them find out.  You may not need Speedbleeders there, just do a normal bleed with the new banjo bolt.  They cost maybe US$15.00 and up ('way up!) so check prices before you buy.

Another bleeding trick is to tie the lever back with a bungee cord, and let it sit that way overnight.  Why I can't say, but it helps to get the air out.
.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: Tuned forks on June 12, 2019, 06:57:08 PM
Another bleeding trick is to tie the lever back with a bungee cord, and let it sit that way overnight.  Why I can't say, but it helps to get the air out.

Robert passed along that trick to me.  I can attest that it really works!

Joe


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 13, 2019, 12:02:22 AM
OK, I tried to open the clutch reservoir in order to remove as much dot 4 as possible from the top and, as you can see in the picture attached, the second bolt to open the reservoir was really stuck in there and the head stripped :Facepalm:

So that's pretty much it, I couldn't do much more... what do you guys suggest to do with this bolt? drill the head off and deal with the rest once the cover is off?

One more silly question, for bleeding the system cant I just leave the top reservoir cover open and start adding fluid from the bottom bleeder and flickering the hose until the reservoir fills up and loses the air in a natural way? bubbles go up etc... then just screw the cover in and that's it? Leave the lever tight with the bunjy during all this process and lose it the next night.

Otherwise, I would rather fit the banjo bolts with bleeders, sounds more natural to bleed through the top, I found in another post that the banjo bolts for our master cylinders are M10 x 1.25 pitch and about 18mm long from the shoulders of the bolt downwards.

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7916.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7916.0)

Even furthermore, cant I just drill the banjo that is there now and thread it to take a bleeder? speed or regular one?... I do have a bench drill and am not foreign to create thread... any takers? lol.

OK I will think about what to do about my cover bolt, in the meanwhile, I will start reading the Clymer manual.

Thanks for the good advice guys.





 





Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: Old Rider on June 13, 2019, 01:02:11 AM
To get the screw out you have several options.First you can try to very gently turn  the reservoir lid back and fort but be careful there is a ridge on the underside .
you can drill out the head on the screw or take a dremeltool with a mini cuttingdisk making a cut so you can use a flat screwdriver or a chisel .Or you can drill a little hole in the middle of the screw and use
a screw extractor tool like the one in the picture .working on the FJ it is really handy with a screw extractor set dont ask me how i know  :biggrin:

For getting air out as mentioned earlier pull in the lever and tie it to the handle over night and at the same time do it with your brake lever also .The reservoir cap dos not need to be taken off.
i have sometime a spongy brakehandle and even if tryed to bleed the the brake/clutch i have not always got  100% good result.Then tying the lever into handle over night all the supersmall airbubbles get out and  the handle gets rock hard and stays that way for many weeks before need to tie the lever overnight again.It is best to place the bike on centerstand when doing it on the clutch side


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 13, 2019, 02:45:47 AM
Thanks, Old Rider for the advice, I went down before reading your post thou and drilled the head off the screw, I will source out a new one with Yamaha... see pics attached.
I will need to get me a set of extractors for sure... the bleeder in the slave cylinder is not coming off and it is pretty much rounded... I will get a speed one and put it there once this comes out once it meets the vice.

To be honest, basing my experience in pictures I expected to see some worst scenario there, there is obvious drip from the slave so it is dripping but the outer seal looks pretty intact. The inner seal does look kinda old and dry.
Is there any chance that by taking everything apart and cleaning the rust and putting it back together with some lube it might work again? Then I can still buy the rebuilding kit for spare in the future? Has someone done this before?

I cleaned everything in there pulled the pushrod out and gave it a wipe as well. There is a lot of grime and weird stuff in that area just to the left/ lower side... I mean chain appears at 3 o clock, then at 6 and 7 there is some sort of I don't know maybe an old gasket It cant be just dirt and grease, it looks like something else. Could anyone give me a hint of what that may be based on the attached photos?
I just realized the photos are turned in the forum post so the chain in the photo is at 12 o'clock, then I wonder of hats happening at 3 - 6 in the pictures...
It really looks like just grime in the picture but in the real, it felt way more solid and I rather don't poke it too much... in the case is something that might break even further.

Again thanks for the advice and I will keep you guys posted.



Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: Old Rider on June 13, 2019, 04:07:19 AM
That is the gasket for the sprocketcover its not really needed.i never had that gasket installed and did not install it when i rebuild my engine .  If i where you i take off the sprocketcover and clean up in there .


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: RPM - Robert on June 13, 2019, 08:53:49 AM
Bleeder Banjo Bolt (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=BanjoBoltBleeder)
OEM Master Cylinder Screw (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=98706-04012-00)
Allen Head Master Cylinder Screws (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=AllenBrakeResevoirCapScrew) A bit easier to get on and off for maintenance
Sprocket Cover Gasket (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SprocketCoverGasket) Is between the case and sprocket cover. They are used to keep excessive dirt, grime, chain lube, etc. from flinging out of the sprocket area.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: red on June 13, 2019, 11:43:14 AM
OK, I tried to open the clutch reservoir in order to remove as much dot 4 as possible from the top and, as you can see in the picture attached, the second bolt to open the reservoir was really stuck in there and the head stripped  So that's pretty much it, I couldn't do much more... what do you guys suggest to do with this bolt? drill the head off and deal with the rest once the cover is off?

One more silly question, for bleeding the system cant I just leave the top reservoir cover open and start adding fluid from the bottom bleeder and flickering the hose until the reservoir fills up and loses the air in a natural way? bubbles go up etc... then just screw the cover in and that's it? Leave the lever tight with the bunjy during all this process and lose it the next night.

Otherwise, I would rather fit the banjo bolts with bleeders, sounds more natural to bleed through the top, I found in another post that the banjo bolts for our master cylinders are M10 x 1.25 pitch and about 18mm long from the shoulders of the bolt downwards.

[url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7916.0[/url] ([url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=7916.0[/url])

Even furthermore, cant I just drill the banjo that is there now and thread it to take a bleeder? speed or regular one?... I do have a bench drill and am not foreign to create thread... any takers?
THXFJ1200,

Drilling the head off is the straightforward approach now.  There are also "dig-in" screw extractors that cut into the metal (NOT an EZ-out) to give enough bite to unscrew anything that will unscrew.  Check the tool stores.  If the screw snaps off then, it was seized, and I would want a good master cylinder as a replacement, then.

Not sure how you could pump fluid up from the bleeder.  Nice idea, but it will leak at the bleeder threads.  You would need to clamp the hose on, to take the pressure, also.  Let us know if you get that done; you may start a movement.  8) 

If the stock banjo bolts have enough metal at the head, it may be okay to drill and tap for a bleeder.  Let us know if you make that happen.
.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 13, 2019, 01:14:12 PM
OK, this is what I have in my checkout list so far from RPM. Just wanted to share and see if anyone comes with an other item I should add, this is the third shipment in little more than two weeks... trying to avoid extra shipping, learn from my own mistakes... heheheh

Sprocket Cover Gasket x1
Allen Head Brake Reservoir Cap Screw x2
Bleeder Banjo BoltBleeder Banjo Bolt x2
Slave Cylinder Rebuild Kit x1
Brake Line Copper Crush Washer x4
Clutch Hub Lock WasherClutch Hub Lock Washer x1

Notice I have an extra banjo bolt and crush washers just for any future front brake work.
Also if I end up installing the banjo bolt at the master cylinder, does that mean I don't have to fiddle with the bleeder at the caliper and can just leave it there for good, I mean the thing is rounded and not going anywhere...Might as well just let it be? Or would I still need to work with it in order to dissipate the bubbles in the slave cylinder itself? If that's the case could I order a replacement for it with RPM?

The speed bleeder people have not answered my email...  :blush:

Seems something is not in stock in RPM... so maybe I will need to wait a little bit.

OK listening for options and then pulling the trigger on that order at the end of the day.
Going to work now.
Thanks to everyone!



Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: red on June 13, 2019, 01:48:44 PM
if I end up installing the banjo bolt at the master cylinder, does that mean I don't have to fiddle with the bleeder at the caliper and can just leave it there for good...Might as well just let it be? Or would I still need to work with it in order to dissipate the bubbles in the slave cylinder itself? If that's the case could I order a replacement for it with RPM?
THXFJ1200,

The next few times you bleed the brakes or the clutch, if you get no bubbles at the caliper or the slave cylinder, then it may be okay to just bleed at the master cylinders.  Depends on what results you will get, over time.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 13, 2019, 09:33:30 PM
OK, just ordered the last goods from RPM.
I will dedicate some time to study the clutch bleeding procedure... I know some Shimano bike brakes I have bled like that, from low to high and they work great after that...
One tricky question, degassing or not degassing, personally I have always thought if you don't shake the fluid bottle like a maniac there is no reason for bubbles to be microscopically there, and hence degassing to me looks like a waste of time and probably a way to induce gas into the fluid... I have a DIU pressure bleeder that I use in my car, I might try it in this clutch job and see what can I do with it.

Thanks for the advice.
See you on the road.

Serge


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on June 15, 2019, 08:55:21 AM
Another bleeding trick is to tie the lever back with a bungee cord, and let it sit that way overnight.  Why I can't say, but it helps to get the air out.


I know why that works.  It's the OVERNIGHT part that makes it work.  The best tool for bleeding brakes or the clutch is PATIENTS.

On the clutch try just tapping the lever on the master piston.  This will tease the air up and out of the line.  Trying to push the air down to the slave bleeder takes forever.  Again, take your time and wait for the air to rise.

Also, if you attempt a reverse bleed by forcing fluid up from the slave be sure to put the mater cover on because when the fluid hits the master is will spew all over the place.  And brake fluid is very damaging to paint and plastic.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: FJmonkey on June 15, 2019, 10:06:57 AM
I agree with Red. The clutch master will self bleed. I guess the brake side as well considering it is the same mechanism in mirror image. I removed the line at the master one day. I planned to bleed the system at the end. After connecting the line back to the master I removed the cover. Then I thought about how much air might have been introduced by taking the line off. So I slowly cycled the clutch lever to see how it feels. I saw small air bubbles escaping up from the bottom of the master. After a few cycles the clutch lever felt normal. So I put the cap back on and tested the clutch function. All was good, no additional bleeding required. Air will rise and given enough time, will find its way back up the master.

The same port that allows fluid to return to the master is also how air escapes up and out of the system.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on June 15, 2019, 02:11:32 PM

I know why that works.  It's the OVERNIGHT part that makes it work.  The best tool for bleeding brakes or the clutch is PATIENTS.

Man, I really hate stupid errors.  It was early, no caffeine yet.  That should be PATIENCE


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 15, 2019, 04:21:17 PM
Here is my take on this, following all there has been said so far in regards to bleeding the slave cylinder...

I already also ordered a new bleeder from RPM for the slave cylinder, since mine came off in really poor shape, and I also ordered a bleeder in the new banjo bolt at the connexion with the master.

I think I will try to start filing the system from the lower bleeder up, maybe put some plumbers putty around the thread area to avoid air coming in through there? I would do this with my pressure bleeder and with the banjo bolt off and a container attached to it... previously covering the paint areas with a poly sheet so no fluid is spilled anywhere on the bike.

On the other half of the system, I will fill up the master with fluid without touching the lever and cover it (new cover screws with Allen heads coming from RPM as well) then I will make the banjo bolt thread to the master as high as possible by tilting the master in the steering bars. then once both halves are quite filled up and probably with little air inside I will proceed to assemble the system and bleed it as old hooligan says by flickering the lever and extract air through the banjo bolt bleeder that at this point should be the highest point in there, also flickering the hose see if some more bubbles come out. 
 Once it seems all good I will bring the lever all the way to the handlebars and tight it up with something, Bungie or zip-strap, and leave it overnight... PATIENCE (right old hooligan  :good2: )
The next day I will just take a test ride and see what's what...

What do you think of this? RED / FJmonkey / FJ_hooligan / old rider / etc

I will write back with my results.

Thanks again you guys, this is so much easier with your support!




Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: FJmonkey on June 15, 2019, 04:29:40 PM
Sounds good. Keep a spray bottle of water or water based cleaner to wash/rinse any spilled brake fluid. It will not cause damage right away, but left on it will eat away the paint and weaken plastic. Since the water is harmless to the paint, use liberally in the event of a spill/drip. 


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: red on June 15, 2019, 06:17:08 PM
I think I will try to start filing the system from the lower bleeder up, maybe put some plumbers putty around the thread area to avoid air coming in through there? I would do this with my pressure bleeder and with the banjo bolt off and a container attached to it... previously covering the paint areas with a poly sheet so no fluid is spilled anywhere on the bike.
What do you think of this? RED / FJmonkey / FJ_hooligan / old rider / etc
THXFJ1200,

Sounds very thorough.  I expect the work to go well.  Rather than plumbers putty (I'm not familiar with that stuff), you might want to try a wrap of "pipe dope" thin plastic ribbon sealer around the upper threads of the bleeder.  Any plumbing or hardware store will have it.  It sticks to nothing, and stays put only by stretching it into place on the threads.  The store will probably show you how, on big pipes.  For right handed threads, turn the bleeder rightly (the tightening direction) as you wrap the tape.  One layer may be enough, on those  small threads.  If you decide to remove it later, you should be able to cap the bleeder, unscrew the bleeder slightly, and peel it off easily.  Unlike other sealers, you will be able to tell if you have removed it all.
.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: CutterBill on June 19, 2019, 12:31:44 PM
I've never had any trouble at all bleeding FJ clutches.
I think I will try to start filing the system from the lower bleeder up, maybe put some plumbers putty around the thread area to avoid air coming in through there?
That's how I do it. Drain the system completely, then fill from the slave bleeder. I use a trigger-type oil can with a short length of hose. Cheap and easy. And you don't need any putty or other sealant. Also, I strongly advise you to use DOT 5 silicone fluid. It works perfectly and it doesn't damage the paint if it spills. It is slightly thicker than DOT 4 fluid and I can feel a very slight difference in the feel of the lever. But if you got on my bike and I didn't tell you it was filled with DOT 5, you wouldn't know. (Note: it also works great in the brake system but it says on the can "Do not use on ABS systems." I'll take their word for it.)

On the subject of those cross-head screws... there isn't a single Phillips-head screw anywhere on an Fj. Or any other Japanese bike, for that matter. Those are JIS screws and require JIS screwdrivers. And yes, it does make a difference. Using Phillips screwdrivers on FJ screws is like using Vice-grip pliers to remove bolts. Yeah, it works. Sort of...

Go here. Buy the set with the #1, 2 & 3 screwdrivers.  https://www.mcmaster.com/jis-(japanese-industrial-standard)-screwdrivers (https://www.mcmaster.com/jis-(japanese-industrial-standard)-screwdrivers)
Bill


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: red on June 19, 2019, 04:36:23 PM
THXFJ1200,

You can buy JIS Apex-style screwdriver bits for US$5.00 here:

https://cyclemax.com/inc/sdetail/jis_cross_head_screwdriver_tips/4102/283408 (https://cyclemax.com/inc/sdetail/jis_cross_head_screwdriver_tips/4102/283408)

Bring your own screwdriver/bit holder, of course.  I use mine with a 1/4" socket, for offsets and stubborn screws.
.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 26, 2019, 01:36:06 AM
Thanks, red and Bill, for the bits advice, I already bought a couple of Allen key screws sets from RPM for the clutch and brake reservoirs. I must have some of this kind of bits in the sets I have around, I just never knew they had a different name than the Phillips ones, I will educate myself in regards to this soon.

I am about to start working on the clutch and shifter this weekend, I will need to know what kind of oil to use in order to put the clutch plates to soak in oil 24h or so before installation, then do an oil change... I just noticed I will need a filter, I think I will just go to a local store for that. But in the oil topic I know there is always a lot of favorites etc... I have like 1.5 liters of this kind of oil that I did an oil change in my previous bike.

See the attached image for the kind of oil I have handy. this link gives some info on its properties, it mentions wet clutch so I think I must be in the right track.
https://www.belray.com/product/bel-ray-exl-mineral-4t-engine-oil/ (https://www.belray.com/product/bel-ray-exl-mineral-4t-engine-oil/)

Please feel free to give me oil suggestions as per what it works for your bikes. I must indicate my weather is very fair, not extreme temperatures I mean. and I live pretty much at water level if that is even important. My bike is close to 70xxxkm if I remember well.



Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: Motofun on June 26, 2019, 05:19:18 AM
The Belray oil will work fine.  Use the same oil to soak the clutch fibres in as well.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: red on June 26, 2019, 06:48:06 AM
I just noticed I will need a filter, I think I will just go to a local store for that. But in the oil topic I know there is always a lot of favorites etc... I have like 1.5 liters of this kind of oil that I did an oil change in my previous bike.
Please feel free to give me oil suggestions as per what it works for your bikes.
THXFJ1200.

You will need about 4,5 liters to change the oil, with a new filter.  I use full synthetic, meeting the owner's manual specs, 20W-50 in my old FJ. 

Since you say you will buy an oil filter locally, I guess that you have the spin-on oil filter option from RPM, and use automobile oil filters.  Make sure you buy oil filters with an anti-drain (flapper) valve, so the oil filter remains filled with oil when the engine is off.  Otherwise, the oil pump would have to refill the oil filter at each start-up, before the engine gets any oil at all.  Most (not all) oil filters will have this feature, but check to be sure.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 26, 2019, 10:21:20 AM
Obviously, this is my first oil change, hence I am talking with too much freedom supposing this is as simple as in other bikes, but now I see it is not...
What's the deal with the pinching cables and o-rings and all that from simply replacing your oil filter?

I do not have the oil filter conversion kit from RPM and I was hoping to just get the OEM Yamaha filter for the FJ1200 in a local motorcycle store. and simply change it from one to the next with some oil in there.

I had read about this conversion in the FJ.info website but kinda forgot about it later on. Is it something I should get for sure or can it be spared for the next oil change? I have already made like 3 shipments from RPM and almost 80 dollars just in shipping, translate to more than 120 Canadians and was hoping to avoid any more spending on the bike, plus the underground garage is gonna be power washed next Tuesday and I need to get the bike out for a day or so, pushing is not going to be fun if I have to wait for the shipment to get here...

Anyways, anyone that can further comment on this, I would be forever thankful.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: RPM - Robert on June 26, 2019, 10:41:59 AM
They stock filter is a canister type filter: OEM Yamaha Cartridge Oil Filter (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=36Y-13441-00)

There is a high probability that the oring or wiring can get caught in the housing when bolting to the engine creating other issues. Plus, don't forget the spring and washer from the oil filter.

Fram used to make a filter but since the bike is 30 years old and I don't even think a handful of bikes use that filter, they stopped making them. Most likely your only option will be from a local Yamaha stealership.

The adapter allows you to go to your local parts store and buy automotive filters that spin on like a car or truck filter. 1) making it a bit easier to service & 2) allowing you to buy the filter locally.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: red on June 26, 2019, 12:45:58 PM
Obviously, this is my first oil change, hence I am talking with too much freedom supposing this is as simple as in other bikes, but now I see it is not...  What's the deal with the pinching cables and o-rings and all that from simply replacing your oil filter?
I had read about this conversion in the FJ.info website but kinda forgot about it later on. Is it something I should get for sure or can it be spared for the next oil change?
THXFJ1200,

When you remove the old oil filter, you will see a small electrical cable than runs close by.  Just be sure you have that cable free and clear before using tools. The washer and spring in the housing hold the filter in place; without them, oil will still get to the engine, but it will not be filtered.  Oil expands rubber, so the sealing ring likes to pop out of place when re-installing the housing.  The same applies to any engine O-rings that see oil.

The spin-on oil filter adapter is just a convenience for you, and giving you the option to replace old oil filters even when the Yamaha shop is far away or closed.  It certainly can wait until you are ready.  After the first oil change, most riders will be ready.
    :yes:   
.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on June 26, 2019, 01:11:01 PM
Since this is your first oil change and you still have the OEM canister filter, DO NOT REMOVE the small canister drain bolt!

This will not drain the canister (or it will take forever) and it will probably strip the soft aluminum threads when you go to reinstall it.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 26, 2019, 02:06:12 PM
Ok, now I am AFRAID, damn...

Reply with Quote
Just be sure you have that cable free and clear before using tools
what tools? I mean the filter is off... wouldn't I put the new one by hand... I am sure I will need to read a lot more to familiarize my self with the special way of changing the oil filter in this FJs and sure too that I will order the spin-on adapter once I am done with it.

Reply with Quote
The washer and spring in the housing hold the filter in place
So I gather by this the filter is held in place by the pressure of the spring above it? and below the housing? SO there is no thread on this filter?

Reply with Quote
you still have the OEM canister filter, DO NOT REMOVE the small canister drain bolt
What/where is that bolt? 

Reply with Quote
This will not drain the canister (or it will take forever)
WIll this leave any old oil lingering in the system? Do I want that?

Reply with Quote
it will probably strip the soft aluminum threads when you go to reinstall it
Now this one makes me even more freaked out, why would the threads strip?? Is this common for every oil change without the slip-on adapter?

Now after a good dose of paranoia, I ask my self, maybe the oil doesn't need to be changed and I can still soak the plates in this new oil and put them in like that with minimal oil contamination?

Or maybe I can change just the oil and leave the filter there until I am ready to put a spin-on adapter in place? Would the filter oil mixed with the new oil have any issue, of course, I don't have a clue what oil is in there, so it could have negative consequences but I don't foresee it been that drastically bad... ???

I will surely tonight read a lot more about what is needed for changing oil and filter parts and service wise.

Thank you all for realz!





Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: ryanschoebel on June 26, 2019, 02:47:53 PM
Don't overthink it!  It IS still just an oil change. Everyone is giving you tips and tricks to look for so that everything goes back together smoothly. Don't get all in your head about how many things there are to look at. Just do the change, and look at the things people are mentioning IF you have issues, which you likely wont.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on June 26, 2019, 03:52:12 PM
If the filter is already off then you pulled the canister off and it drained.  You then removed the cartridge filter to replace it with a new cartridge filter.  The filter should have come with new O-rings for the center bolt and the canister seal against the case.  Replace them.

From your first response below, are you sure you don't already have a spin-on adapter?


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 26, 2019, 04:17:34 PM
I am sure I have the OEM setup (see attached picture) otherwise, I would be looking at a filter like thing in there and not the weird hex bolt.

I guess I am overthinking it, I will just tackle it that's all, I will need to make sure I got everything I need to make it right...

So I need the cartridge filter, the o-ring for the center bolt and the o-ring for the canister to seat against the housing... 4.5 liters of oil.

then in the rebuild, I would try not to pinch wired and make the spring and the o-rings stay in place... it seems like a lot of parts to my like I might bite the bullet and get the right thing from RPM.

Yeah, I've made my mind. I will just get the spin on and push the bike out of here with a friends help for the garage power washing. Then take my time doing things right once and for all. Money'll get back.

Can anyone attest if the oil filter RPM sells (Wix 51334) that fits the spin-on adapter has the desired "anti-drain (flapper) valve" to keep oil in the filter for the next start?

Thank you guys for your patience and great advice.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 26, 2019, 04:36:43 PM
Now, one more question, does anyone has any experience with the "FLO Stainless Steel Oil Filter" from RPM?
It seems like I won't have to buy any other oil filter in the future and I like the fact of being environmentally friendly, so, is this a good investment filtering wise? It even has a magnet so I would think yes is the answer, looking at the price it should be great :blum1:

So I already have an order ready and I will again wait for a couple of answers in order to pull the trigger one more time on yet another RPM delivery, thx to those guys!!!




Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 26, 2019, 06:28:03 PM
OK, I answered my own question and cheap out for a more standard K&N oil filter, plus the spin-on and the o-ring for it, a magnetic plug for the oil pan and another magnet for the filter to sweeten the deal...
Now the wait, I can still start with the clutch work this weekend and end the oil change when this last order arrives.
Thanks again everyone who collaborate in this thread. very kool of you!


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: red on June 26, 2019, 09:34:04 PM
OK, I answered my own question and cheap out for a more standard K&N oil filter, plus the spin-on and the o-ring for it, a magnetic plug for the oil pan and another magnet for the filter to sweeten the deal...
Now the wait, I can still start with the clutch work this weekend and end the oil change when this last order arrives. Thanks again everyone who collaborate in this thread. very kool of you!
THXFJ1200,

Try to relax.   8)   You can probably remove and replace the clutch plates without draining the oil, anyway.  You may want to lean the bike over slightly, and prop it against something solid, to make it easier to access the clutch plates.

The oil filter canister drain screw is Index # 12 on this fiche:

http://www.2wheelpros.com/oem-parts/1992-yamaha-fj1200ad-oil-filter-assembly.html (http://www.2wheelpros.com/oem-parts/1992-yamaha-fj1200ad-oil-filter-assembly.html)

Don't even bother with it, but you asked.  This drawing is for the FJ1200AD, but all FJs will have the same parts, there.  Not sure what model FJ you have there.  This link gets you to all the FJ models (scroll down there) . . .

http://www.2wheelpros.com/oem-parts/1992-yamaha-parts.html (http://www.2wheelpros.com/oem-parts/1992-yamaha-parts.html)

Pick your model, and bookmark the Index page for future reference.  Once you find the part and OEM price, scroll down there to find out what other Yamaha vehicles will have the same part.  That knowledge will help finding used parts, if needed, on eBay or elsewhere.
.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 26, 2019, 11:06:45 PM
Thanks Red, I do want to get everything as good as possible, like fresh oil with fresh plates, etc.

Mine is a 1992 FJ1200 with ABS... not sure if AD/ADC/D/DC... I am trying to google to find what the difference is with no real answers.

OK, wiki says the ABS version is the FJ1200A... AD/ADC??

I would guess at 1992 they were already the 3XW version of the bike?

Not that I am not relaxed, lol, just want to be educated in order to communicate better with my peers here.

Thanks for the links red!





Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: red on June 27, 2019, 07:04:41 AM
Thanks Red, I do want to get everything as good as possible, like fresh oil with fresh plates, etc.  Mine is a 1992 FJ1200 with ABS... not sure if AD/ADC/D/DC...  Thanks for the links red!
THXFJ1200,

You can call the Yamaha mothership directly (1-800-962-7926), give them the VIN, and ask about the model designation.  You may need that, for some parts.  Hang on to that phone number, too.  They will also check for you that all factory recalls (if any) are completed.  Any model with a C in the designation is a California (emissions) bike.
.



Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 30, 2019, 08:52:11 PM

OK bleeding for my first try with the old clutch still ijn there did not work out as smooth as was planning in my head.

Also, I am trying to change what I think is the pushrod seal (see attached picture) with no luck getting the old one out, and now the old one is broken but still in there, I assumed it was supposed to be changed since it came with the clutch rebuild kit from RPM, but now I am afraid I made a mistake by trying to do so and maybe I was better off leaving that in there and saving the new seal for spare in the future?
I am just looking for some reassurance that the old one needs to come out and I am not just going the wrong way, then after dinner, I will go down there and start working on it again.

I need to get the bike working for Tuesday since I need to take it out of the underground parking for power washing.
I am assuming I need some sort of special pulling tool os a nice pick to get it done?

thanks for any advice in regards to this first obstacle.




Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 30, 2019, 09:19:22 PM
Ok now reading more through the forum to make sense out of this, I read something about a ball falling out, and I remember there was a ball bearing on the floor the other day just where I disassemble the clutch. I found that weird but I can not remember where it went at the end of the thing, I can not say it did come from inside the engine thou. Now I am in full on losing my marbles mode!
Is it common for some ball bearing to come out when you take the pushrod out? if so what should be done?
Thanks again I will go now and look for it see if I can find it.

OK went down and found the ball bearing, it is just under 4.3 mm diameter, the only prob is there use to be this moron in our building that amused himself shooting BBs around and every now and then I can still find some BBs around, that puts me in this position where I am not sure if this came from inside my bike or somewhere else... but it was just by my bike when I pull the pushrod out the other day, what are the odds of this BB belonging in there? Any way I can verify if it is or it is not? Sorry to be a drag with this... I will go down not and try pulling that seal out, back in a few to check the forum. 

Here picture attached:

Thanks





Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: racerrad8 on June 30, 2019, 09:46:38 PM
Pull the pushrod all the way out.  Use a screwdriver and pry out the old seal.

If you pulled the internal clutch pushrod when you disassembled the clutch,  that could be the ball. But...

In think that ball as closer to 8mm,  but I can't confirm until I get the the shop tomorrow.

Randy -RPM


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on June 30, 2019, 10:28:01 PM
Thanks Randy,

I was looking online and the only one image/info I found was 8mm as you suspected, so I am going to go ahead with the replacement of the seal (the old one popped out)  and reinstall the slave plus re-bleed... fun... not really.
When removed the seal I noticed the part behind it is not symmetrical... I do think the seal has no specific position to go in right? It doesn't seem to... Overthinking, damn!

Going for it second try, I will report back when done. Hopefully today.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: red on June 30, 2019, 10:38:39 PM
Ok now reading more through the forum to make sense out of this, I read something about a ball falling out . . . Is it common for some ball bearing to come out when you take the pushrod out? if so what should be done? 
OK went down and found the ball bearing, it is just under 4.3 mm diameter . . . it was just by my bike when I pull the pushrod out the other day, what are the odds of this BB belonging in there? Thanks
Serge,

The correct ball for the clutch rod would be 11/32" (Index 26) on the Parts Fiche linked below.  That would be ~8.73mm.  The ball that you found may or may not be what was in there, but it would not be the correct one, if so.  All ball bearings are equal, if you can locate the correct size.

http://www.2wheelpros.com/oem-parts/1992-yamaha-fj1200ad-clutch-assembly.html (http://www.2wheelpros.com/oem-parts/1992-yamaha-fj1200ad-clutch-assembly.html)
.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on July 01, 2019, 12:15:39 AM
Thanks Red,


I put the pushrod with the new seal in there without the bearing I found outside since it was obvious the wrong size and everyone said is kinda an urban myth that the ball falls out... ever.
The bleeding was still very weird, and I did not feel much of a strong lever after that but I held it in and tighten it there against the handlebars till tomorrow with a zip-tie hoping the master self-bleeds.


A while later at least I started it and cycle through the gears just to make sure it wasn't dragging and it seems pretty good, I will go for a ride tomorrow and report back.





Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: THXFJ1200 on July 01, 2019, 02:09:34 PM
Ok finished the bleeding today and it feels pretty good... at some point in improved this morning cuz at the beginning was like not working and dragging a lot...
But then somehow not sure where but close to the clutch I heard like a faded hissing, go figure, it improved a lot, also the level in the MC was over the top, so I got a syringe and suck a little out, then it came too low, some bubble flew out I guess so I put some back int here. Went for another ride in the underground garage and it's much better like the first gear clunk is not that hard and its shifting from 1st into second no prob.

The only prob right now is neutral, I can not find it very easily, and for some reason is way easier to find it when the bike is off. Is this clutch related? I suppose so.
I will keep up with the rebuild of the clutch, I am worried that by putting a new set of disks and a new spring there might be some dragging coming back?
I will put insurance on the bike and use it like this for a while just to settle the hydraulics in the clutch MC and SC first then do the swap for the RPM clutch kit (remove one disk and the wire clip etc) then do the switch of the clutch assembly as well as install the shifter detent kit etc. Then also change oil and filter with the RPM filter spin-on adapter.
Hopefully, all that work brings the shifting experience back to normal if not even better.

One thing is for sure, like Terminator: I'll be back.

Thanks for the patience and I hope you are enjoying this summer fully.


Title: Re: 1992 FJ1200 with ABS Dragging clutch or gears shiffter issues... I still loveher
Post by: RPM - Robert on July 05, 2019, 12:15:58 PM
One other thing to offer when bleeding, is the 8mm Mini Brake Bleeder (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Tools%3A8mmMiniBleeder).

This has a check valve for easy one person bleeding of hydraulic systems.