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General Category => Maintenance => Topic started by: chiz on November 22, 2019, 03:56:13 PM

Title: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: chiz on November 22, 2019, 03:56:13 PM
Hello all
        I just re checked my clearances after installing shims a few weeks ago...All the confederate OK except one
      Which is on the extreme car left intake side...The clearance on this valve is 3/32 or .0880 yes you read it right.

     When I turn the engine with the two intake loves car left pointing toward the preconditions and bucket at a certain will grip a  .OO8 feeler where as the love next to it needs a .014 both loves in same position.

       I have broken my neck to look at this valve down the intake port while turning the engine the valve is moving...don,t know if this proves anything.

    Please what do you folks think I have done and what do you think the fix is????

      Thanks  Chiz
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: Pat Conlon on November 22, 2019, 07:04:13 PM
Quote from: chiz on November 22, 2019, 03:56:13 PM

     When I turn the engine with the two intake loves car left pointing toward the preconditions and bucket at a certain will grip a  .OO8 feeler where as the love next to it needs a .014 both loves in same position.


Hey chiz, can you say this ^^ again? I can not understand what you're saying...
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: FJmonkey on November 22, 2019, 09:55:29 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 22, 2019, 07:04:13 PM
Quote from: chiz on November 22, 2019, 03:56:13 PM

     When I turn the engine with the two intake loves car left pointing toward the preconditions and bucket at a certain will grip a  .OO8 feeler where as the love next to it needs a .014 both loves in same position.


Hey chiz, can you say this ^^ again? I can not understand what you're saying...

Pat, I think he meant this:

 When I turn the engine with the two intake lobes pointing away from bucket, an .OO8 feeler passes where as the lobe next to it needs a .014 both lobes in same position.
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: chiz on November 23, 2019, 08:14:59 AM
Well I slept on this issue and have come to the dreaded conclusion that I ent the end of the cam.This happened I think when a quarter got pinched by the love while turning the motor..after you guys stop shaking your heads can you tell me if the motor is ruined?

   This will add to my collection of ruined stuff of late,desktop,snowblower and bike.If it is not toast what is the fix and how?

   Will a cam replacement work and is this possible with the motor in frame??  Still wrapping my head around the force required.

  Chic
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: Pat Conlon on November 23, 2019, 12:26:28 PM
Take a picture of the cam lobe for us.

*if needed* You can replace the intake cam without removing the engine from the bike.
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: chiz on November 23, 2019, 02:33:35 PM
Hi  I'm going to remove far left cap and try to strait edge the lobes..Ha ha take a pic this will stretch my  limits
As I killed my desktop and this Amazon fire tablet is horrible but who knows..

      I think you could almost notice a3/32 bend??

                          Chiz
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: chiz on November 23, 2019, 03:46:21 PM
Pics pics Straight edgeing the lobes no real stand out things wereseen????????
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: chiz on November 23, 2019, 03:53:44 PM
Couple more
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: RPM - Robert on November 23, 2019, 03:56:53 PM
Chiz, please start over from the beginning your auto-correct on your phone has made the initial post in comprehensible.

You have several different measurements listed and recommendations cannot be provided until everything is cleared up. Can you take some pictures that are clear and in focus as wll
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: chiz on November 24, 2019, 07:06:33 AM
OK. I hate this device I really want to smash the stuffing out of it.

      So I checked my clearances after start up...All checked out OK except one, the intake lobe farthest left this measures out at 3/32  .0880. whereas the lobe right next to it is .006.

     As you all can see this is very disturbing,the valve for the offending lobe is moving up and down viewed down the intake port. Was thinking end of cam bent because of trapped pinched quarter. But with cap removed there seems to be no noticeable difference between the two.

Chiz
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on November 24, 2019, 10:11:10 AM
The chances that you have "bent" a cam due to an improper shim size are pretty much impossible.

It would take TONS of force to bend a cam, especially getting it bent between two adjacent lobes.

If anything, you could damage a lobe surface. 

Your measurement technique must be flawed. Were you using a quarter to help swap shims around?  Is it still "trapped"?  What cap have you removed?
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: chiz on November 24, 2019, 10:50:15 AM
Cap for for left intake cam removved. Just checked wit short straight edge across the top of good lobe to errant lobe at several different points around the lobes NO difference.

     What I noticed though with intake and exhaust  cams in clearence checking position#1 cyl that the bucket for offending lobe is half the hight above the head casting as the good lobe. hmmmmm.

  This leads me to wonder if the bucket is sticking or the valve and spring are funny. I replace the cap and see if this changes anything
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: racerrad8 on November 24, 2019, 02:03:54 PM
Quote from: chiz on November 24, 2019, 10:50:15 AM
Cap for for left intake cam removved. Just checked wit short straight edge across the top of good lobe to errant lobe at several different points around the lobes NO difference.

     What I noticed though with intake and exhaust  cams in clearence checking position#1 cyl that the bucket for offending lobe is half the hight above the head casting as the good lobe. hmmmmm.

  This leads me to wonder if the bucket is sticking or the valve and spring are funny. I replace the cap and see if this changes anything

It is time for a compression check.

If the bucket is not coming all the way up, that is usually one of two things. But since it is an intake valve, I am thinking only one thing...

A bent valve.  :negative:

We have seen the exhaust valve seats fall out of the race car heads and cause excessive clearance or just the opposite, no clearance. But, if when you got that quarter stuck, you rotated the engine and the valve was still open the piston could have contacted it and bent the valve. The compression test will confirm if the valve is bent.

I have only seen a handful of broken valve springs in more than twenty years and they were all in the race car application and aftermarket springs. I doubt there is any bucket or spring problem.

One last thing as I write. If the quarter got stuck and displaced any of the aluminum around the bucket, that could be keep it from coming all the way out of the bore.

Compression check and then if no compression, pop the cam out and see if you can get the bucket out. If not that is where you need to start. Maybe the valve wasn't held open far enough the hit the piston. If the bucket comes out, then the valve is bent.

Keep us posted on your findings.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: chiz on November 24, 2019, 03:35:17 PM
I like it will keep you posted....how to get out the cam??

        Chiz
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: racerrad8 on November 24, 2019, 07:20:15 PM
Quote from: chiz on November 24, 2019, 03:35:17 PM
..how to get out the cam??

        Chiz
Compression test first before camshaft removal.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: chiz on November 25, 2019, 10:17:47 AM
So Randy correct me if wrong please. A compression test will indicate if the offending valve is closed? But with
.0880 gap between shim and cam lobe chances are that there is almost a 100% chance that the valve is a bit open.

      I know that there is a 275 shim in that bucket as of yesterday and in fact is the only shim that was not changed  for a different thickness.

     So I guess the question is what additional information will the test give me? or are you thinking that if the compression is good then the mystry is compounded?

                Chiz
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: Country Joe on November 25, 2019, 10:26:43 AM
Chiz,
Have you considered buying a cheap flexible bore scope that plugs into a cell phone? Crank that piston down to bottom and drop the bore scope down the spark plug hole. You will know in seconds if you have a bent valve....

Joe
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: Pat Conlon on November 25, 2019, 11:31:43 AM
Perhaps the valves are closed? A compression test would show this.

What are the symptoms? What caused you to open up the engine to check the clearances?
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: Carson City Paul on November 25, 2019, 12:39:20 PM
 :Facepalm: Hi Chiz,
My name is Paul Lawson. I am an old school machinist. The problem or discrepancy you are seeing (.006) is because 3/32 is not .0880 it is .09375.
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: chiz on November 25, 2019, 06:03:40 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 25, 2019, 11:31:43 AM
Perhaps the valves are closed? A compression test would show this.

What are the symptoms? What caused you to open up the engine to check the clearances?

No symptoms if you go back you will read it was a simple valve Clarence check and shim replacement except one valve ended up having a Clarence of .0880. I checked them because I had no idea when they were last done all of them needed tweaking except one. Randy said the before Clarence's were " horrible ".
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: Millietant on November 25, 2019, 06:51:57 PM
Chiz - have you read Paul's comment in his post above....

3/32 is not 0.0880 of an inch, it's 0.09375 of an inch........this could be adding to the confusion ?
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: RPM - Robert on November 25, 2019, 07:25:50 PM
Quote from: chiz on November 25, 2019, 06:03:40 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 25, 2019, 11:31:43 AM
Perhaps the valves are closed? A compression test would show this.

What are the symptoms? What caused you to open up the engine to check the clearances?

No symptoms if you go back you will read it was a simple valve Clarence check and shim replacement except one valve ended up having a Clarence of .0880. I checked them because I had no idea when they were last done all of them needed tweaking except one. Randy said the before Clarence's were " horrible ".

Here is what my dad said when he asked if .004 was okay: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18962.msg192008#msg192008 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18962.msg192008#msg192008)
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: chiz on November 26, 2019, 05:41:11 AM
Quote from: Millietant on November 25, 2019, 06:51:57 PM
Chiz - have you read Paul's

3/32 is not 0.0880 of an inch, it's 0.09375 of an inch........this could be adding to the confusion ?

  Negatory on that one a thou either side of my3/32 blurt has nothing to do with the operator induced issue
" me " . plain  reality is that the accuracy of this measurement is secondary question is why is it so great when it should be around .006
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: chiz on November 26, 2019, 05:50:52 AM
Quote from: RPM - Robert on November 25, 2019, 07:25:50 PM
Quote from: chiz on November 25, 2019, 06:03:40 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on November 25, 2019, 11:31:43 AM
Perhaps the valves are closed? A compression test would show this.

What are the symptoms? What caused you to open up the engine to check the clearances?

No symptoms if you go back you will read it was a simple valve Clarence check and shim replacement except one valve ended up having a Clarence of .0880. I checked them because I had no idea when they were last done all of them needed tweaking except one. Randy said the before Clarence's were " horrible ".

     Actually the term was spot on acceptable and pointed out verbally how bad they were (exhaust side) in fact I welcomed the direct to the point comment.

Here is what my dad said when he asked if .004 was okay: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18962.msg192008#msg192008 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18962.msg192008#msg192008)
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: chiz on November 26, 2019, 06:18:58 AM
A week or so ago I busted my computer, FJ and snoblower. Man the blower would not stay running. Frustrated beyond belief I ripped the engine off and hauled the crank out of it.

    On the way I noticed the flywheel key had sheared off a real Ah ha moment. I am not ona small engine forum
  but my feeling is the answer to my problem probably would be long in coming.

  Likewise my kuck up to my bike In my opinion is supremly unique and I get the sense folks arenot clear at all on the issue mainly because of said rearity. A normal question like how do I take so and so apart would hav been answered many times

   But constant daily puzzling over the issue has led me to the conclusion that my cam is not bent..but the bucket is not coming up as high as the one right next to it this is why I am getting such a mind boggling clarence between lobe and shim... Sooo this is where I am  gent,s  Thaks for your time and thoughts.

        Chiz
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: RPM - Robert on November 26, 2019, 10:33:37 AM
There is no puzzle to solve here and this is not a rarity. If the bucket is not coming up as high as all of the others; there are two common causes in these motors.

1) The valve is bent <---------------------------------------------------------- Most likely since your problem is the intake side.
2) The valve seat fell out (Usually only occurs on the exhaust side)

If you tired the quarter trick and muffed up and the aluminum got gouged around the bucket. The bucket will now be dragging on the gouge until you take the bucket/valve spring out and clean up the bore. (This is not common as this is operator error)

So to make it easy.


To fix, you will need to remove the head since the valve is stuck open. If you attempt the rope method, if the valve is not already bent, you will likely bend it. If at any point you turned the motor over with the bucket sticking and the valve was not bent already, it is likely bent now.
Title: Re: Something horrible just have happened
Post by: Carson City Paul on November 27, 2019, 02:06:38 PM
Quote from: chiz on November 26, 2019, 05:41:11 AM
Quote from: Millietant on November 25, 2019, 06:51:57 PM
Chiz - have you read Paul's

3/32 is not 0.0880 of an inch, it's 0.09375 of an inch........this could be adding to the confusion ?

  Negatory on that one a thou either side of my3/32 blurt has nothing to do with the operator induced issue
" me " . plain  reality is that the accuracy of this measurement is secondary question is why is it so great when it should be around .006

Chiz... The difference between .09375 and .0880 is .00575. That would be 5 3/4 thousandths, 1/4 thou shy of .006 or 2 1/2 tenths of a thousandth less than .006
which would put you at the reading took on the other valve.