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General Category => FJ Project Writeups => Topic started by: FJ1200W on February 07, 2020, 03:13:24 PM



Title: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 07, 2020, 03:13:24 PM
The 1315 motor is about to come out of the FJ1100 frame, I thought it was interesting the frame and engine numbers matched, I'm not used to seeing that.

As discussed before, the previous owner pulled the starter drive out to try and save some weight, so I need to disassemble to motor and make that repair. It will be a good time to inspect the rest of the innards. Of particular interest, which Carillo rods are in there? I have a feeling they are the older "A" beam.

One thing I learned today, I'm going to get some help pulling the motor, I'm out of shape and it's heavy!

I left the lower rails on, I'm thinking it might have been easier to remove it - I'm at a standstill until some muscle shows up. Cancer sucks, but that's behind me.

Oh, the plan is to transplant it into my 1989 FJ1200. I originally planned on swapping the head, but you know what, 1315 sounds good and the old motor is running so well I'd hate to buck it up.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 07, 2020, 09:36:38 PM
1314. Thirteen Fourteen. Not 1315.

Moving on -

Pulled the valve cover, everything looked good.

Pulled cams and found a nice shim under bucket setup.

It looks like the cam ran hot on one end, please see the pictures, it feels better than it looks. Some additional upper end oil might be needed.







Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 07, 2020, 09:44:18 PM
Combustion chambers are clean.

Pistons and cylinder walls look good -






Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 07, 2020, 09:46:44 PM
Buttons on the pistons  :good2: and the rods appear to be Carrillo as suspected  :good2:


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 08, 2020, 07:31:43 PM
Couple of serious concerns after some emails with Randy.
It appears that the cylinder studs may be too large of a diameter and could be impeding the oil flow to the cams.
The end of the intake cam bearings and the bearing surface on the head, possibly damaged. Cam faces need close inspection. A cam bucket is not rotating enough.
Possibly corrected by a top end oiler - heavy on the possibly. My theory. Would it fit withing the frame?
Piston height and damage to one piston, I'll look closer. Piston height would be corrected when I put it back together.
Fun stuff!
Very grateful to Randy and RPM.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 09, 2020, 05:07:35 AM
Deck height, not piston height...


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: fj1289 on February 09, 2020, 10:12:35 AM
A top end Oiler CAN be made to fit in the frame.   The fitting on the intake side gets very tight. 

You will need to modify a banjo fitting to be “low profile” - may need to buy a few different brands/styles and see which  is most suitable to being narrowed.  Then have to make sure the bolt will still provide a good oil path (since you have changed the internal alignment of the passages between the fitting and bolt).  You can also thin the bolt head on a lathe to gain some clearance.  You will definitely have to grind down a wrench if you need to tighten it a touch inside the frame (if you have a small leak, etc).  Finally. Make sure you DO NOT get a banjo bolt with tapered threads!  I missed this little detail when I assembled one for the old drag bike engine.  Nearly stripped the head because of it!  A “straight” threaded bolt solved the issue. 

Two following thoughts -

If I remember correctly, he was running that engine on nitromethane/methanol mix?  I’ll bet with the heat of combustion from the nitromethane, the piston ring gaps were setup very wide intentionally to keep the ends from butting due to the heat.  I don’t know how appropriate this will be for street use.   

Why not swap out the cylinder studs for stock and alleviate all these concerns?  When we built the race motor for the land speed bike (drag bike mentioned above repurposed for land speed) Randy intentionally went with stock cylinder studs despite the large nitrous oxide shot we were going to run for a fairly long period of time (20 plus seconds at a time vice 10 or less for a drag strip application).  Why?  Randy’s concern is the aftermarket studs don’t “give” with the thermal expansion of the engine and actually pull the threads out of the cases.  We actually went with slightly LOWER tightening torque with the stock studs to give a little more “give”  with the nitrous.   No head gasket issues at all even with 82mm bore and 150HP shot of nitrous. 

I’d strongly recommend going with stock cylinder studs and go with the very well proven stock FJ oil system.   That recommendation comes from someone that likes to modify everything in sight and has been down this road - both engines we’ve used in the land speed bike have seen 150HP shots of nitrous and both have been very happy with stock cylinder studs and stock oiling systems.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 09, 2020, 10:47:49 AM
A top end Oiler CAN be made to fit in the frame.   The fitting on the intake side gets very tight. 

You will need to modify a banjo fitting to be “low profile” - may need to buy a few different brands/styles and see which  is most suitable to being narrowed.  Then have to make sure the bolt will still provide a good oil path (since you have changed the internal alignment of the passages between the fitting and bolt).  You can also thin the bolt head on a lathe to gain some clearance.  You will definitely have to grind down a wrench if you need to tighten it a touch inside the frame (if you have a small leak, etc).  Finally. Make sure you DO NOT get a banjo bolt with tapered threads!  I missed this little detail when I assembled one for the old drag bike engine.  Nearly stripped the head because of it!  A “straight” threaded bolt solved the issue. 

Two following thoughts -

If I remember correctly, he was running that engine on nitromethane/methanol mix?  I’ll bet with the heat of combustion from the nitromethane, the piston ring gaps were setup very wide intentionally to keep the ends from butting due to the heat.  I don’t know how appropriate this will be for street use.   

Why not swap out the cylinder studs for stock and alleviate all these concerns?  When we built the race motor for the land speed bike (drag bike mentioned above repurposed for land speed) Randy intentionally went with stock cylinder studs despite the large nitrous oxide shot we were going to run for a fairly long period of time (20 plus seconds at a time vice 10 or less for a drag strip application).  Why?  Randy’s concern is the aftermarket studs don’t “give” with the thermal expansion of the engine and actually pull the threads out of the cases.  We actually went with slightly LOWER tightening torque with the stock studs to give a little more “give”  with the nitrous.   No head gasket issues at all even with 82mm bore and 150HP shot of nitrous. 

I’d strongly recommend going with stock cylinder studs and go with the very well proven stock FJ oil system.   That recommendation comes from someone that likes to modify everything in sight and has been down this road - both engines we’ve used in the land speed bike have seen 150HP shots of nitrous and both have been very happy with stock cylinder studs and stock oiling systems.

Excellent information, thank you so much!

I'm probably pulling the cylinder today if time allows and I'll check the ring gap as well as that damage Randy noticed.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 09, 2020, 12:59:21 PM
Regarding the oiling, what about milling off a fin to tuck the line in closer? Or - shoot me if you must - Just drill those two holes in the block slightly larger?

Pulled the cylinder off -

Sleeves looked a lot thicker than some of the ATV's I've seen.

Measure at 2.50mm

The damaged piston, possibly dress it out?

Another had a smaller nick.

Cases look really clean.

Ring gap - I am going to have to double check these as it seems tight -

Top ring .11mm and 2nd .14mm


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 10, 2020, 06:36:15 PM
I'm going to check and see if I have the stock cylinder studs and the stock shim-over components.

Might be a step backward in some ways, but a step forward in others.....


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 11, 2020, 01:22:27 PM
I checked a few boxes and found the stock spring retainers and shim buckets, but no cylinder studs - yet. more to look through.

Measured the ring gap and weighted the pistons for fun.

I've got to get in touch with my machinist to measure the pistons and bore to see if they'll work.

Fun stuff, open to suggestions.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 11, 2020, 01:24:00 PM
Parts located and the totes I could search....... I am admittedly behind on getting organized.......


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on February 11, 2020, 07:25:46 PM
What model is that Pioneer Receiver? 

I have an SX-650 that I bought in 1972.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 11, 2020, 08:29:27 PM
What model is that Pioneer Receiver? 

I have an SX-650 that I bought in 1972.

That one is a SX-680 and it's driving Cerwin-Vega surround sound speakers mounted in the rafters. Sounds pretty good for a shop system.

Inside it's a SX-980 driving a set of Time Window's. Originally it had JBL L100's and I wish I still had them, they were fantastic speakers.

Fun stuff


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 12, 2020, 08:22:06 AM
Piston weights - Comments?



Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 12, 2020, 09:15:15 AM
I've been studying the oiling system and wanted to share these lubrication diagrams. If I can make any improvements, let me know, I had trouble tracking some of it, especially in #4.

My focus is on the upper end.

I scheduled a meeting with my machinist this afternoon, weather permitting.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 12, 2020, 10:28:47 AM
In the past I had smoothed out the sharp edges on the pistons - does anyone think this is worth the effort?


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: CutterBill on February 12, 2020, 11:51:12 AM
Lubrication system: there are a million FJ's all over the world, being soundly thrashed and abused with stock oil systems and they work just fine. Exactly what problem are you trying to solve?

Smoothing off the piston edges: Is it worth it? No.  But is it fun and makes you feel better? Oh absolutely, that's why I do it.  :biggrin:
Bill


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 12, 2020, 12:50:19 PM
Lubrication system: there are a million FJ's all over the world, being soundly thrashed and abused with stock oil systems and they work just fine. Exactly what problem are you trying to solve?

Smoothing off the piston edges: Is it worth it? No.  But is it fun and makes you feel better? Oh absolutely, that's why I do it.  :biggrin:
Bill

I guess the improvement comment was two fold, mechanically and the the diagrams for future reference.

The #1 intake cam journal(s) looked a little starved. The engine has APE studs, they're fat, and I was concerned they might be restricting the oil flow. I want to dot my I's and cross my T's the best I can. I was considering enlarging those holes one drill size, just enough to maybe increase flow - But, if is is already restricted somewhere else, there is no point.

I dropped the cylinder and pistons off at my machinist just now, hopefully in a couple days I'll know if they're usable.

He has some interesting tools of his trade, one shown.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on February 12, 2020, 02:45:52 PM
Replace the "oil supply" studs with stock and use the APE studs on the rest


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 12, 2020, 06:59:39 PM
Replace the "oil supply" studs with stock and use the APE studs on the rest

It's a tough call. There are enough people running them without any issue to make me think they have to work.

And I've had a few people say they don't like them. One said they were too brittle IHHO, he had seen them snap off at the case, but it was in a higher vibration application, whatever the heck that was. And Randy does not seem to be a fan of them. As this is a budget build for me, I am going to do a close inspection and list the pro's and con's of all options.

Thanks for the feedback


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: fj1289 on February 13, 2020, 01:48:55 PM
For me, having gone down a similar path already, it would be a no-brainer: sell the APE studs and get some stock ones (even used).  For the $$ spent figuring out a top end oiler system, you could simply buy new studs.  Really wish I had listened to similar advise in the past!


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 14, 2020, 08:15:08 AM
For me, having gone down a similar path already, it would be a no-brainer: sell the APE studs and get some stock ones (even used).  For the $$ spent figuring out a top end oiler system, you could simply buy new studs.  Really wish I had listened to similar advise in the past!

I may do that, I have that complete other bike just sitting there, it could be a great donor for many parts.

And I do have a title for it..... Maybe that's where the motor will end up.

It would be fun smoking the local V-Twins on a ratty old FJ1100  :good2:

Dyno chart is a local shop and a recent HD Milwaukee 8 mild build, that's some torque and they can pull some pretty impressive times - easily.

What was the maximum RPM you ran with the shim over buckets?


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: ribbert on February 14, 2020, 08:35:05 PM

What was the maximum RPM you ran with the shim over buckets?


I think you'll find piston speed is the limiting revs factor for a road going FJ engine.

Noel


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Pat Conlon on February 15, 2020, 01:02:25 AM

What was the maximum RPM you ran with the shim over buckets?


I think you'll find piston speed is the limiting revs factor for a road going FJ engine.

Noel

Nope, the FJ’s limiting rev factor is valve float from oem valve springs.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: ribbert on February 15, 2020, 06:46:15 AM

What was the maximum RPM you ran with the shim over buckets?


I think you'll find piston speed is the limiting revs factor for a road going FJ engine.

Noel

Nope, the FJ’s limiting rev factor is valve float from oem valve springs.

I guess that depends on how you read the question.

There is an absolute mechanical limiting factor (excluding component failure) - valve bounce, and a practical mechanical limiting factor - piston speed.

For a road bike, such as he's building, I took it to be the latter.

Noel

Just out of interest, do you know at what revs valve bounce occurs?


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Pat Conlon on February 15, 2020, 10:48:23 AM
I said valve float (from loft) not valve bounce, there is a difference.

At what RPM Valve Float on oem FJ cams with oem springs?

I have been told somewhere in the range of 10k-10.5k RPM, but I’ll defer to the experts.

Bob W, Mike, Chris, Randy, David, what say you guys?


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: racerrad8 on February 15, 2020, 11:25:37 AM

What was the maximum RPM you ran with the shim over buckets?


I think you'll find piston speed is the limiting revs factor for a road going FJ engine.

Noel

I am churning for more specifics on this opinion of Noel's of how the piston speed for the FJ engine is the limiting factor.

This will be interesting to say the least... :bomb:

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Pat Conlon on February 15, 2020, 11:44:45 AM
Yep, I was wondering about that....Questions for Noel:

1) FJ Piston speed: How fast is too fast?
2) If the stroke is 63.8mm at 11k rpm the FJ piston speed is 4605 FPM, is that too fast? Why?

I’m open to learning....


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: racerrad8 on February 15, 2020, 12:31:57 PM
Yep, I was wondering about that....Questions for Noel:

1) FJ Piston speed: How fast is too fast?
2) If the stroke is 63.8mm at 11k rpm the FJ piston speed is 4605 FPM, is that too fast? Why?

I’m open to learning....

I'll add a couple more questions for Noel:

3) Why is piston speed the limiting factor of a FJ engine?
4) Have you ever observed a FJ engine failure due to excessive piston speed?
   a) If yes, what failed due to the excessive piston speed?
5) Valve "bounce" versus valve "float"; which comes first?
6) Why does one come before the other?

I too am churning for learning...

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 15, 2020, 12:34:17 PM
Reply with Quote
There is an absolute mechanical limiting factor (excluding component failure) - valve bounce, and a practical mechanical limiting factor - piston speed.
For a road bike, such as he's building, I took it to be the latter.
Noel

Exactly, it's going in a road bike, "practical".

I just don't want to spit out a shim.

The V&H Powerpak I was considering using has a custom chip with redlines that seem too high for shim over bucket.

What is the maximum "safe" RPM with aftermarket springs?

In regards to the discussions of limiting factors, the starter/alternator drive concerned me, then I started thinking about the supercharged H2 using something somewhat similar to drive the blower......


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Pat Conlon on February 15, 2020, 04:17:34 PM
Steve, I would go *nowhere near* those ^^^ RPM limits with oem hardware.   :bomb:

Spitting out a shim with a stock FJ cam profile would not worry me.
Drag racers using high lift cams with steep ramps, yea, I could see that happening.

Consider the FJ engine’s durability with Legend and Thunder Roadster racers. These guys race all weekend in multiple heats going around at WFO....night after night....do they spit shims?

I am not a racer, but I know a few on this forum....in fact, I happen to know a guy who was a National Champion.

Pretty cool huh?

Pat


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: JMR on February 15, 2020, 04:35:25 PM
Steve, I would go *nowhere near* those ^^^ RPM limits with oem hardware.  :bomb:

Spitting out a shim with a stock FJ cam profile would not worry me.
Drag racers using high lift cams with steep ramps, yea, I could see that happening.

Consider the FJ engine’s durability with Legend and Thunder Roadster racers. These guys race all weekend in multiple heats going around at WFO....night after night....do they spit shims?

I am not a racer, but I know a few on this forum....in fact, I happen to know a guy who was a National Champion.

Pretty cool huh?

Pat

Yeah....I agree that's a bit to high. :biggrin: Limiting factor for making power is generally cam lift/duration and valve size....you can only get so much air in there no matter how hard you spin it. Honda proved that spinning engines to over 20,000 RPM's.
 And then there are the trade offs with cam lift and duration......you need the mechanical ability to control those components too. Everything is a compromise.....just like life


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 15, 2020, 06:27:47 PM
It sounds like there will not be any issues or concerns going back to the stock setup, with the stiffer springs and mild cam, 10,500 would probably be the most, have to wait and see what the dyno shows.

I'm chomping at the bit but have to do a car repair 1st and weather has been bad. The garage is setup for motorcycles, not cars.

I did remove the buckets and shims. Was going to pull the valves but caught myself - no hurry, get the car behind me......


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: fj1289 on February 16, 2020, 10:14:05 AM
Well, the most practical answer - a well prepped FJ engine will hold together at higher RPMs than cams and heads are likely to make power at unless you do extensive development on those parts.   So, find out where it really makes power and set it a little past there!

Another way to look at this - the Hayabusa uses similar engine dimensions to the FJ - 1st gens are 81mm bore x 63 mm stroke, 2nd gens got a 2mm longer stroke at 63 mm.  Their stock redlines are 11,000.  And a lot of folks will up the redline when they do cams and head work on a stock bottom end to 12,000 or 12,500.   So I don’t think max piston speed is the practical limit.   

I had the drag bike set up for a while at 11,000 shift point.  It had enough cam, port, carb, and displacement to still be pulling hard up there.  On the land speed engines with the milder cams and nitrous, the shift points have been 9,500 but setting the limiter around 10,300 - 10,500 to allow some over rev if needed at the top of the run.  The land speed engines have both been stock shim over bucket with mild cams and performance valve springs.  No problem with spitting shims - even with the large nitrous “pops” in the exhaust on the shifts.   





Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: fj1289 on February 16, 2020, 10:19:57 AM
Also talked at length with Randy on the spitting shims thing.  I think with good valve springs and mild cams, it is not an issue for the FJ.  I THINK (no personal experience to back this up though) where the risk would come would be large cam lifts that put the lobe much further to the edge of the shim AND get into a valve float incident.  I don’t think one OR the other will get you there - I think it would take BOTH and a little bad luck. 

I’d like the hear from someone that has seen shim issues on an FJ engine. 


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 16, 2020, 11:46:03 AM
Well, the most practical answer - a well prepped FJ engine will hold together at higher RPMs than cams and heads are likely to make power at unless you do extensive development on those parts.   So, find out where it really makes power and set it a little past there!

Another way to look at this - the Hayabusa uses similar engine dimensions to the FJ - 1st gens are 81mm bore x 63 mm stroke, 2nd gens got a 2mm longer stroke at 63 mm.  Their stock redlines are 11,000.  And a lot of folks will up the redline when they do cams and head work on a stock bottom end to 12,000 or 12,500.   So I don’t think max piston speed is the practical limit.   

I had the drag bike set up for a while at 11,000 shift point.  It had enough cam, port, carb, and displacement to still be pulling hard up there.  On the land speed engines with the milder cams and nitrous, the shift points have been 9,500 but setting the limiter around 10,300 - 10,500 to allow some over rev if needed at the top of the run.  The land speed engines have both been stock shim over bucket with mild cams and performance valve springs.  No problem with spitting shims - even with the large nitrous “pops” in the exhaust on the shifts.   



Useful information, thank you.

As long as the cams I have are marked correctly, there should be no problems as long as I stay within a reasonable max RPM.

I'll always remember the 1st time I saw the intake ports on a 'Busa (or any number of newer bikes/engines). There is no way our "old school" intake ports would even flow like those, and that is another reason for me to not try and build a ultra-high rev'ing engine.

As long as I can keep the Harley's beat, I'll be happy.

And that's getting harder all the time.....


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on February 17, 2020, 11:43:45 AM
A text message with picture came last night from the machinist and I put the figures into a spreadsheet.





Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on March 01, 2020, 07:51:34 PM
I was able to finish the main project ahead of this one over the weekend.

Looking forward to splitting that cases, inspecting, replacing whatever needs attention and reassembling the who enchilada for springtime fun!


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Indiana jones on March 02, 2020, 01:46:26 AM
That's good info Rey the shim over bucket config.
I should be good with a Yoshi stage 1 cam then.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: JMR on March 08, 2020, 07:23:38 AM
That's good info Rey the shim over bucket config.
I should be good with a Yoshi stage 1 cam then.
I ran shim over bucket with Yosh stage 1 cams for years with no problems. Dyno runs, limiter hits etc. One of the big advantages of shim on bottom is the shims weigh much less especially if you use the 9.5mm retainers.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on March 17, 2020, 10:27:30 AM
I needed to hold the clutch hub and thank goodness I had kept a set of old burn't metal clutch plates.
And a broken bolt cutter, which I used on of the handles for this tool.
I put the old clutch plates on a board. Then I screwed them in place to assure alignment.
Next I used a large C-Clamp to securely hold it all together and to my workbench.
Then I drilled the holes, installed bolts, spacers and washers, and it worked very well.
Once I get feeling better I'll get those cases split.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on March 24, 2020, 12:39:12 PM
Perfect time to make time to split those cases -


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on March 24, 2020, 02:43:35 PM
Time to check and see what parts I have and what I'll need. Hopefully suppliers are shipping..... And the delivery people, delivering.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on March 24, 2020, 03:45:21 PM
See any concerns?


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on March 25, 2020, 05:07:42 AM
Does anyone know if there a "kit" with all the lower end gaskets/seals/orings/etc or do they need to be ordered individually?


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: aviationfred on March 25, 2020, 09:53:51 AM
Does anyone know if there a "kit" with all the lower end gaskets/seals/orings/etc or do they need to be ordered individually?



Maybe this will have everything that you need.


http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CompleteStarterClutchKit (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CompleteStarterClutchKit)


Fred


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: racerrad8 on March 25, 2020, 05:50:57 PM
Steve, 20+ years ago there was a couple of aftermarket complete gasket kits. Unfortunately the quality was substandard and they had a ton of issues. I got one with a basket case I bought many moons ago and the lack of quality was obvious.

I'm working from my phone, so I can't see the photos very well. But usually, the trans needs to be removed so the drive cogs can be inspected.

I'll have a look this weekend when I get to the shop.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on March 25, 2020, 06:44:52 PM
Steve, 20+ years ago there was a couple of aftermarket complete gasket kits. Unfortunately the quality was substandard and they had a ton of issues. I got one with a basket case I bought many moons ago and the lack of quality was obvious.

I'm working from my phone, so I can't see the photos very well. But usually, the trans needs to be removed so the drive cogs can be inspected.

I'll have a look this weekend when I get to the shop.

Randy - RPM

Robert is all over it, thank you!

I'll pull the trans apart and we'll see what we see.

Thanks again, pic's to come


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on March 26, 2020, 10:03:19 AM
Transmission pictures - https://drive.google.com/open?id=1BURQkSwUI3irRkJLcAjwUTkY56O4WeYo


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 08, 2020, 11:20:04 AM
Oh the joys of working on something someone else worked on before.

When I split the cases, I found the center oil passage was plugged. Or restricted, I was not sure which.

After much thought, I tried to remove it with a pick, but it was in tight.

So, in my infinite wisdom, I used a tap - threaded it in, put some vice grips on it, a plastic hammer for leverage, and just like magic -

I broke it off in the plug. Or restrictor. Whatever it is. Was.

Luckily, time and patience won out, and it seems like the cases will be OK.

When the original builder removed the starter and related parts, he plugged the passage, for obvious reasons.

I have a transmission on the way, out of a 1993, so it should be undercut from the factory and - well, let's wait for it to arrive.

Shift forks, I'll order those from RPM, and then I need to decide on the shift detent roller - anyone install it and truly tell a difference? Stock spring or stiffer spring? Yeah or nay?

Many thanks for all the help


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 08, 2020, 12:44:01 PM
The passage plug.
I see sealant, it was tight.
I may remove that broken easy out just because it's the right thing to do.  :crazy:


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 08, 2020, 01:19:59 PM
Why was that plug installed?

Yes on the RPM roller shift kit, use the stock spring.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 08, 2020, 02:26:41 PM
Why was that plug installed?

Yes on the RPM roller shift kit, use the stock spring.

The internal starter drive mechanisms were removed for Bonneville by the original builder.

He used that to block the oil passage to it.

That's my guess

I wanted to use the engine on the street and appreciate a starter. :D


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 08, 2020, 03:14:06 PM
Ok, thanks Steve, yea, starters are a good thing.
Be sure to get the low profile oil jet for your starter chain:
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=19016.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=19016.0)

Speaking of starters, I just remembered, the Yamaha FJ1100 was the first motorcycle I have ever owned that did not have a kick starter.

I was concerned, but I figured I could always bump start it in a pinch....

Cheers


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: andyoutandabout on April 08, 2020, 10:36:09 PM
Phew and timely question and a timely answer. I couldn’t think of any good reason to restrict oil flows about the engine. It’s the kind of condition nightmares are made of.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: JMR on April 09, 2020, 10:32:21 AM
Phew and timely question and a timely answer. I couldn’t think of any good reason to restrict oil flows about the engine. It’s the kind of condition nightmares are made of.

People have routinely restricted oil flow in Hayabusa race engines (LSR and drag) to keep pressure higher where you want it to be.....main and rod bearings. Oil flow to the oil cooler is one of the primary areas restricted.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 09, 2020, 11:21:00 AM
Ok, thanks Steve, yea, starters are a good thing.
Be sure to get the low profile oil jet for your starter chain:
[url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=19016.0[/url] ([url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=19016.0[/url])

Speaking of starters, I just remembered, the Yamaha FJ1100 was the first motorcycle I have ever owned that did not have a kick starter.

I was concerned, but I figured I could always bump start it in a pinch....

Cheers


I'm considering that as well, but am on a budget......

Time to fire up eBay and turn some stuff into money! :D


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 16, 2020, 03:35:23 PM
The final hard parts have been ordered.

The transmission arrived, it is as represented. Looks fantastic in fact.

So excited.

Cabin Fever: Is real


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 20, 2020, 04:58:49 PM
Close to the final care package arrived today. (Not the transmission)

About time to lock myself in the garage.

I'm torn on whether to put the stiffer shift dent spring in or not - as this is not going to be a long distance rider, I'm leaning towards using it.

If I go with an air shifter and that might be a benefit.

Thoughts anyone?


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 22, 2020, 06:51:58 AM
Now to figure out what crankcase sealer to use.

The manual calls for Yamaha-4 ACC-11001-05-01 which has a new part number of ACC-BOND4-MC-00.

I checked the MSDS for the product and it is ThreeBond #1215

"This is an oxime type single-component, moisture-curing, silicone based liquid gasket. It has relatively low viscosity, so it is easy to apply. It has excellent chemical resistance and can be used as an FIPG (Formed In Place Gasket) for engine oil pans and gear cases, etc., in addition to general purpose sealing applications."

Subaru also uses Threebond #1215 and lists equivalents as 3M T-3 #08670 Black Silicone or Loctite/Permatex #599 Ultra-Grey.

I could have used the search feature here 1st and found out that RPM uses Permatex Ultra Black. This product does have a wider temperature range.

If Randy uses it and says it's good, it's probably good.

And it's color coordinated.  :good2:


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 22, 2020, 07:13:58 AM
I'm wondering about the roller detent arm I received.

Attached is the picture of the RPM unit pictures from their web site and pictures of what I received.

Did I receive the right part?


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: RPM - Robert on April 22, 2020, 09:07:57 AM
Yes. It has been superceded to a new part number and the design changed. It is still a ball bearing roller unlike the stock detent which was not.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 22, 2020, 09:48:09 AM
Yes. It has been superceded to a new part number and the design changed. It is still a ball bearing roller unlike the stock detent which was not.

Thank you - I like this design. I could be wrong, but it appears stronger.

I'm torn on using the spring. Seems there are a lot of opinions.

If I was going to be riding this a lot, I'd probably stick to stock.

But this one is not going to be a "distance rider" of any magnitude.

Leaning towards the stiffer spring.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: RPM - Robert on April 22, 2020, 10:17:20 AM
I'm torn on using the spring. Seems there are a lot of opinions.

There's that old expression; Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one...

Use the spring provided with the detent roller as that is designed for that application and other springs could result in missed shifts.



Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJmonkey on April 22, 2020, 11:46:55 AM
I'm torn on using the spring. Seems there are a lot of opinions.

There's that old expression; Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one...And some are bigger than others...

Use the spring provided with the detent roller as that is designed for that application and other springs could result in missed shifts.



Fixed it...


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 22, 2020, 12:08:38 PM
I'm torn on using the spring. Seems there are a lot of opinions.

There's that old expression; Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one...And some are bigger than others...

Use the spring provided with the detent roller as that is designed for that application and other springs could result in missed shifts.





Fixed it...

Too funny  :rofl2:


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 22, 2020, 12:48:41 PM
FYI to those that are interested.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 22, 2020, 01:04:04 PM
Red or blue loctite of the shift detent arm bolt?

The manual is not clear on which to use......


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 22, 2020, 01:54:14 PM
Red or blue loctite of the shift detent arm bolt?

The manual is not clear on which to use......

Blue and safety wire it is  :yes:


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 22, 2020, 03:38:04 PM
I like increased surface contact and the bearing.
I'd like to see a bearing on the other side as well.
 :yes:
I'm happy - but I may redo my safety wire.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 23, 2020, 11:58:54 AM
1st attempt at safety wire


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 24, 2020, 09:46:22 AM
I am feeling a little blessed that the old Yamabond 4 or whatever was used on the cases is cleaning up with CRC Brakleen (Brake cleaner) and microfiber cloths.

It's going to take some time but time I have.






Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 24, 2020, 03:45:36 PM
Installed the starter drive.

Twice.

See why?


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: RPM - Robert on April 24, 2020, 05:21:44 PM
Installed the starter drive.

Twice.

See why?

:Facepalm: Yep


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Old Rider on April 25, 2020, 01:37:25 AM

Installed the starter drive.

Twice.

See why?



Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Old Rider on April 25, 2020, 02:09:12 AM
Yes the C........R...   
Thanks for sharing you rebuild nice picks !


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 25, 2020, 07:53:07 AM
Yes the C........R...  
Thanks for sharing you rebuild nice pics !

Yep! You got it.

And my pleasure, thank you!


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 25, 2020, 07:54:38 AM
Installed the starter drive.

Twice.

See why?

:Facepalm: Yep

That's exactly what I did.  

And I had to make it that way, which is even funnier. :wacko3:

Easy enough to correct.

It was satisfying when the upper case dropped right into place.

I have to admit, that upper case is heavy when assembled. I was able to do it alone, but next time I'm inviting a buddy over.

Fun fun fun!


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on April 25, 2020, 04:45:08 PM
Too old for tests.  Care to clue in the rest of us who haven't been that far?  Not much of a lesson if you keep it a secret.

Does it have anything to do with that pin?


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: RPM - Robert on April 25, 2020, 04:49:07 PM
Does it have anything to do with that pin?

no, the rods are not in the holes for the cylinders, they are laying on the case split line.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Pat Conlon on April 25, 2020, 07:13:22 PM
Hey Steve, thanks for the great write up.

Question: On your earlier post (Reply #67) with the picture of the shift forks, *I think* the caption is reversed.
The later stronger shift forks are on the left and the early skinny weaker shift forks are on the right.
Late (Left) to Early (right)



,,,I think....



Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 25, 2020, 10:08:55 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon
Question: On your earlier post (Reply #67) with the picture of the shift forks......[/quote


No Sir, the longer ones are the newer ones.

Better leverage I assume - Robert/Randy???

Quote from:  FJ_Hooligan
Too old for tests.[/quote

I can relate. Robert beat me to the answer. thank you Robert!

Ironically I picked the crank up a second time to pull two of the rods out. I was used to working with it in the lower case. Lesson learned - Third time was the charm.

While assembling today, I found a few parts that I failed to order or just went missing. I order those up, along with a oil filter adapter.

I noticed the gearbox did not shift smoothly. It would not go into all of the gears.

And that the shafts did not rotate as smoothly as they should.

Something was wrong.

The shift forks were checked from the bottom, I can see how they could be replaced with the engine in the bike.

Nothing wrong there, I put a lot of thought into it and decided to split the cases again.

I found I had the 1st gear wheel in backwards.

Transmission shifted slick as a whistle!

When I pulled the cases apart the 2nd time, the little o-ring between the cases came out with the upper case. I remember finding it in the upper case, I'm sure I put it back where it goes.

Shit.

I'm pretty sure I did.

I did get the cases back together, transmission spins nicely, as does the crank, no worries there.

Way past my bed time.....

Thank you all for your replies


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on April 26, 2020, 11:40:56 PM
The mention of only the starter drive threw me off.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on April 30, 2020, 03:18:21 PM
According to a text from the USPS, a shipment from RPM to me is due today.

I'm excited to move on to whatever comes up next.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 01, 2020, 12:55:56 PM
Taking my time assembling the engine.

It was a challenge to safety wire the oil pump, have a look, if I need to tear everything down again, that's what I need to do.

Clutch: The original steel wire was in place, along with the spacer and different clutch plate. If memory serves me right, I can just replace these with a full plate, correct?

The oil pump gear seemed loose, I don't remember it feeling kind of "wobbly" - is that normal? When assembled with the drive gear and clutch basket, it felt snug.

What else - I found the oil level sensor was removed and a special plug made.

And the neutral indicator guts are missing.

Luckily I have a complete parts bike.

Other than that, everything is pretty straight forward.

My plan is to keep assembling and when I get to the block, measure the deck height and make a determination on base gasket thickness.

I'm going to look through some boxes for a fork seal for my '89. I know I have one somewhere......

If it rains money, I'll order the kit

https://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AFJ41ForkR%2FBKit (https://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AFJ41ForkR%2FBKit)

Thanks in advance for any and all assistance


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 01, 2020, 02:48:16 PM
I remember making this diagram and now I remember I forgot to include what the color coding was......

I'll keep looking.......


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 01, 2020, 03:08:15 PM
I remember making this diagram and now I remember I forgot to include what the color coding was......

I'll keep looking.......


Steve, I used your colored diagram (thanks again) on the Slipping Clutch post over in the Clutch Files section.
Scroll down... http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.0)


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 01, 2020, 04:47:45 PM

Steve, I used your colored diagram (thanks again) on the Slipping Clutch post over in the Clutch Files section.
Scroll down... [url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.0[/url] ([url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=1808.0[/url])


If it was a snake it would have bit me!

Thank you so much, that is exactly what I was looking for!

Oh - Thanks again for thanks again :D


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 05, 2020, 05:24:01 PM
Decided to split the old cases one more time.

I'm glad I saved the box for the bolts.

The o-ring in the center was right there where it was supposed to be.

Triple checking everything else.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: racerrad8 on May 05, 2020, 05:31:27 PM
Decided to split the old cases one more time. The o-ring in the center was right there where it was supposed to be.

It must be the anti-seize you used on the spark plugs... :Facepalm:

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 05, 2020, 05:50:12 PM
Decided to split the old cases one more time. The o-ring in the center was right there where it was supposed to be.

It must be the anti-seize you used on the spark plugs... :Facepalm:

Randy - RPM

That must be it!

Seriously, modern spark plugs don't need it. The black ones usually do.

And if you use it, make sure it is conductive and be extra careful when tightening.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: racerrad8 on May 05, 2020, 05:54:51 PM
Seriously, modern spark plugs don't need it. The black ones usually do.

Oh I know, I have posted the fact with the NGK website specifically saying nothing is to be added to the threads.

Maybe I search for it over the weekend...

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 05, 2020, 07:52:15 PM
Seriously, modern spark plugs don't need it. The black ones usually do.

Oh I know, I have posted the fact with the NGK website specifically saying nothing is to be added to the threads.

Maybe I search for it over the weekend...

Randy - RPM

You're correct and there is no reason anyone should question the fact.

Let me save you some time -

https://ngksparkplugs.com/en/resources/5-things-you-should-know-about-spark-plugs


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Old Rider on May 06, 2020, 01:03:39 AM
Decided to split the old cases one more time.

I'm glad I saved the box for the bolts.

The o-ring in the center was right there where it was supposed to be.

Triple checking everything else.

Nice work !
Always fun to split the cases several times i think i had to split them 3 times when i did my engine.
 About the lose oilpump gear  check that  the splines on the axle are in good shape and the lockwasher for wear. When i did my engine rebuild i noticed that the gear was very lose.It is supposed to be a little loose but not excessive.
i found that some splines was broken. it is hard to see with naked eye (at least my eyes =) )
I ended up buying a brand new oilpump from RPM .


On the pick i see bearingshell on 2-3-4 journals is gone most likely vacum glued them self on the crank journals but i guess you are aware of that

one more tip but i guess you are not going to paint the cylinderstuds since they look nice .But if you do don't do same mistake i did and that is painting the 2 studs on the right side of engine where the oil flows. i did and the paint flaked off and ended in the oil-filtercasing. I had gray and black particles in the oil-filtercasing and that was a mix of gray zinkbased paint as i used as primer and black heat resistant enginepaint. I don't think it did any damage to engine anyway but could have blocked oilgalley.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Old Rider on May 06, 2020, 01:25:07 AM
I also use a little copper anti size on sparkplugs.I use 15 Nm instead og 17.5NM when tourque them
I check plugs often and if i dont use copperpaste i notised the plugs not tread smoth.
her is a pick of my plugs i cleaned some days ago.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: ribbert on May 06, 2020, 09:25:15 AM

I also use a little copper anti size on sparkplugs.



As do I and many others. There will always be two schools of thought on this but it's interesting to note that Lycoming and Continental require it be used on their engines.
NGK claim 100% of damaged plugs returned to them show signs over tightening, the easiest way to combat that was to make it more difficult to do by recommending not using it. Easier than educating ham fisted installers.

 
Use it, don't use it, it doesn't really matter but keep in mind, the warning from the manufacturer is to protect their arse, not to improve your experience with their product. Think of the ridiculous washing /drying/ care instructions on a T-shirt, the "Objects are closer......." warning on car mirrors, safety warnings, telling you not to put your 55" TV in your ear or that it's not to be eaten or washed with a garden hose and so on.

Brake Pad instructions say they are only to be fitted by a licenced or suitably qualified mechanic. Who do you reckon they're looking out for there?

Bills thoughts below are interesting.

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16749.msg169565#msg169565 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=16749.msg169565#msg169565)

Noel


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 06, 2020, 02:37:11 PM
Decided to split the old cases one more time.

I'm glad I saved the box for the bolts.

The o-ring in the center was right there where it was supposed to be.

Triple checking everything else.

Nice work !
Always fun to split the cases several times i think i had to split them 3 times when i did my engine.
 About the lose oilpump gear  check that  the splines on the axle are in good shape and the lockwasher for wear. When i did my engine rebuild i noticed that the gear was very lose.It is supposed to be a little loose but not excessive.
i found that some splines was broken. it is hard to see with naked eye (at least my eyes =) )
I ended up buying a brand new oilpump from RPM .


On the pick i see bearingshell on 2-3-4 journals is gone most likely vacum glued them self on the crank journals but i guess you are aware of that

one more tip but i guess you are not going to paint the cylinderstuds since they look nice .But if you do don't do same mistake i did and that is painting the 2 studs on the right side of engine where the oil flows. i did and the paint flaked off and ended in the oil-filtercasing. I had gray and black particles in the oil-filtercasing and that was a mix of gray zinkbased paint as i used as primer and black heat resistant enginepaint. I don't think it did any damage to engine anyway but could have blocked oilgalley.

Oil pump - Seems to only be a little play in and out with the shaft. Oil pump looks nearly new. I'm calling that good!

Yes, good catch on the bearings. That's exactly where they went.

The only mistake I'm making with the studs is using the APE ones that came in the motor due to budgetary concerns. Hopefully they'll be fine.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 07, 2020, 02:49:31 PM
Shout out to Robert - Thank you for the answer to my question.

I'm pretty sure my google pixel phone was created by Satan himself. I'm trying to address the issue with speaking and not being heard by powering off my phone daily.

I'll try it, if that does not work, it might make for a great skeet target.

Made some more progress - Engine cases assembled. Clutch installed. Ready for the cylinders next.

I need to find a 81mm ball hone somewhere, measure the piston height, then start on the head.

Butcher paper comes in real handy, I have a roll close and Sam's Club type stores have it pretty cheap. I like to use it as a work surface (like cleaning bolts, as shown on FJowners) and then just toss it away when it gets too contaminated. I also use it to cover/protect parts while waiting for the next phase.

Also, "Pet Pads" also work very well. I used them under leaky bikes.

The previous owner had painted the oil pan, I'm trying to leave it as original as possible. I could not stand the point on the cooler ports so those I cleaned up.

Overall it's been a awesome day.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 07, 2020, 08:30:16 PM
Degree wheel adapter: Complete
Spin on filter adapter: Installed


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: aviationfred on May 08, 2020, 12:36:25 AM
A good addition to the spin on oil filter adaptors is the magnetic washer. Slide it over the threaded nipple before you install the filter. It really works at catching super fine metal.

http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=OFM&cat=39 (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=OFM&cat=39)


Fred


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 08, 2020, 07:22:52 AM
A good addition to the spin on oil filter adaptors is the magnetic washer. Slide it over the threaded nipple before you install the filter. It really works at catching super fine metal.

[url]http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=OFM&cat=39[/url] ([url]http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=OFM&cat=39[/url])


Fred


Thanks Fred!


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 08, 2020, 03:36:40 PM
Making the adapter for the degree wheel was very satisfying.

It's all off now but should work fine. 

I ordered a 3 1/4" 320 grit flex hone today, it''s not due in until next Thursday. Then I can wrap the cylinders up.

The head could be worked on, the plan is to install new seals and a couple other things ;)



Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 09, 2020, 11:54:20 AM
I send the cams out to have the journals polished.
When I pulled the sprockets I realized they were "customized" to be made adjustable.
Cha-Ching


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 09, 2020, 01:14:13 PM
Hey Steve, FYI here’s a 11 year old post which might interest you...

http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=712.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=712.0)

Cheers!


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 09, 2020, 02:38:09 PM
Hey Steve, FYI here’s a 11 year old post which might interest you...

[url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=712.0[/url] ([url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=712.0[/url])

Cheers!


My targets are 24 btc open / 53 abc close on the intake and 55 bbc open / 22 atc close on the exhaust

Stock should be 12 btc open / 41 abc close on the intake and 40 bbc open / 12 atc close on the exhaust

That was a good read, thank you!



Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 09, 2020, 02:45:12 PM
I don’t know the cam lobe duration on the stock cams** what would your targets be measured in lobe center degrees?

**assuming you are using stock cams.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 09, 2020, 05:17:54 PM
I don’t know the cam lobe duration on the stock cams** what would your targets be measured in lobe center degrees?

**assuming you are using stock cams.

Not stock cams.

Stock duration is 233 degrees on the intake, 232 degrees on the exhaust. At .040" duration.

Stock lift is .315" and .313" respectively.

I have not confirmed the cam is not a special grind, but it should be .375" lift and .257 degrees duration on both sides.

The codes on the cam are for a Mega Cycle 26800 and I'm not sure if the MP is the machinist or some other code.

The 03.90 may be the date code.

I hope so, as there are rumors the early Mega Cycle cams hold up much better than the newer ones.

It's not a radical grind, I'm not sure why the titanium shim under retainers were installed, but it sounds like I'm going back to the stock shim over bucket set up for reliability.

Unless some wants to talk me out of that.

:D


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: RPM - Robert on May 09, 2020, 05:34:45 PM
...but it sounds like I'm going back to the stock shim over bucket set up for reliability.

Only use genuine Yamaha valve shim on those cams. Many aftermarket shims are a different hardness and surface finish that do not play well with Mega Cams.



Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 11, 2020, 06:24:13 AM
...but it sounds like I'm going back to the stock shim over bucket set up for reliability.

Only use genuine Yamaha valve shim on those cams. Many aftermarket shims are a different hardness and surface finish that do not play well with Mega Cams.



Wait - you mean I can't sand down quarters and polish them with Simichrome?  :wacko2:


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 12, 2020, 06:12:57 PM
USPS came through early

83mm 320 grit


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: fj1289 on May 12, 2020, 10:56:14 PM
I don’t know the cam lobe duration on the stock cams** what would your targets be measured in lobe center degrees?

**assuming you are using stock cams.

Not stock cams.

Stock duration is 233 degrees on the intake, 232 degrees on the exhaust. At .040" duration.

Stock lift is .315" and .313" respectively.

I have not confirmed the cam is not a special grind, but it should be .375" lift and .257 degrees duration on both sides.

The codes on the cam are for a Mega Cycle 26800 and I'm not sure if the MP is the machinist or some other code.

The 03.90 may be the date code.

I hope so, as there are rumors the early Mega Cycle cams hold up much better than the newer ones.

It's not a radical grind, I'm not sure why the titanium shim under retainers were installed, but it sounds like I'm going back to the stock shim over bucket set up for reliability.

Unless some wants to talk me out of that.

:D

Stock shim over bucket works well with those cams - but I can only vouch for them up to 10,500 RPMs!


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 13, 2020, 01:31:33 PM

Stock shim over bucket works well with those cams - but I can only vouch for them up to 10,500 RPMs!

That's good to hear and it is consistent with the majority. I'll keep in under 10.5K and call it good.



Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 13, 2020, 01:35:59 PM
Honed the cylinders today.

I can still see a couple of tiny scratches, it is what it is.

Good enough for this project!


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 13, 2020, 01:38:45 PM
Glad to have an understanding wife.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 14, 2020, 04:18:30 PM
Randy has an eye for detail and he noticed it appear my pistons were too high. Deck height was off.

He was right.

The copper base gasket measured .60mm which is probably not 100% accurate, I'll check again.

I did measure it multiple times, but Cometic only makes them in .020" (.50mm), but the gasket could be from somewhere else.

The piston seems to be approximately .15mm (.005") above the deck.

Should it be even with the deck or below?

If so, can I use a fiber gasket with the copper gasket or do I need to use one gasket of the correct size?

And finally, for this phase, should I spray the copper gaskets with a sealant (Permatex Copper Spray-A-Gasket or ???)?




Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: fj1289 on May 15, 2020, 08:33:18 AM
Steve - you can stack MLS base baskets to get the thickness you need.  Guys are also known to de-revert MLS gaskets to remove a layer - so Ikd imagine you could do the same to add one or two layers if needed. 

I would THINK you could stack an MLS with the copper, but I’d run that by Randy first.   

I really prefer MLS gaskets over copper - copper used to be handy for one-off gaskets or thicknesses, but seems you can do the same with MLS now.   I seem to always get a “seep” from copper gaskets I do t get with MLS.   


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 15, 2020, 09:03:42 AM
Steve - you can stack MLS base baskets to get the thickness you need.  Guys are also known to de-revert MLS gaskets to remove a layer - so Ikd imagine you could do the same to add one or two layers if needed.  

I would THINK you could stack an MLS with the copper, but I’d run that by Randy first.  

I really prefer MLS gaskets over copper - copper used to be handy for one-off gaskets or thicknesses, but seems you can do the same with MLS now.   I seem to always get a “seep” from copper gaskets I do t get with MLS.  

Good info, thank you.

I'm leaning towards ordering one Cometic C8598 base gasket which is .010 - That should put the piston a hair below.

Reply with Quote
Single-Layer Steel (SLS) gaskets feature a stainless steel core with embossed outer surfaces that create a heavy-duty seal between the center steel layer and the mating surface
Viton gaskets feature a stainless steel core with a 0.001" thick coating of Viton rubber on both sides

Or the C8241 .010 copper

Whatever RPM not only suggests - but sells! :D
 


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Old Rider on May 15, 2020, 10:14:45 AM
I'm not a expert but the pistons have to be below surface .when i did my engine i used 2 steel-basegasket stacked to get pistons below surface. i think 1 gasket builds 0.25 millimeter when crushed .Maybe you need 3 steel-basegaskets stacked and that may make the piston flush.
I used this gaskets http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=5EA-11351-00&cat=39 (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=5EA-11351-00&cat=39)  The gaskets have a spesial layer that glues them together and seals at first heatcycle.

The fibergasket i was told might bulge out and start to leak they dont make them with asbestoes anymore and that makes them weaker.
Here are a link to when i had the same question and Randy answered:   http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18143.240 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18143.240)

What are you going to do with the pistonrings ?  are you going to reuse the old ones? if i where you i would use new rings since you have honed the bores or else the rings will not bed in and you get a oilburner.That is what i heard anyway.

And i also got a forgiving wife her is a pick from when i baked a cylindercake in the oven to get the cylindersleves in and had the sleeves in freezer   :wacko1:
It smelled enginepaint for some days and the pizza tasted a little engine .



Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 15, 2020, 11:05:25 AM
I'm not a expert but the pistons have to be below surface .when i did my engine i used 2 steel-basegasket stacked to get pistons below surface. i think 1 gasket builds 0.25 millimeter when crushed .Maybe you need 3 steel-basegaskets stacked and that may make the piston flush.
I used this gaskets [url]http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=5EA-11351-00&cat=39[/url] ([url]http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=5EA-11351-00&cat=39[/url])  The gaskets have a spesial layer that glues them together and seals at first heatcycle.

The fibergasket i was told might bulge out and start to leak they dont make them with asbestoes anymore and that makes them weaker.
Here are a link to when i had the same question and Randy answered:  [url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18143.240[/url] ([url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18143.240[/url])

What are you going to do with the pistonrings ?  are you going to reuse the old ones? if i where you i would use new rings since you have honed the bores or else the rings will not bed in and you get a oilburner.That is what i heard anyway.

And i also got a forgiving wife her is a pick from when i baked a cylindercake in the oven to get the cylindersleves in and had the sleeves in freezer   :wacko1:
It smelled enginepaint for some days and the pizza tasted a little engine .




I'm reusing the piston rings as they have very little use and appear new. If it's a oil burner, I can bust back into it again, I'm on a budget of sorts. That being said, if there are major issues on the final check of ring gap, they'll be replaced.


I had hoped to hear from RPM sooner rather than later, and I could not find that specific base gasket on their web site, so I ordered one (C8241 Copper .010") off eBay.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: RPM - Robert on May 15, 2020, 11:30:46 AM
I had hoped to hear from RPM sooner rather than later,...

I have not heard from or seen my dad yet today. I'm sure he'll be here at some point today.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 15, 2020, 01:53:53 PM
I had hoped to hear from RPM sooner rather than later,...

I have not heard from or seen my dad yet today. I'm sure he'll be here at some point today.

No worries Robert. I appreciate everything you all do!


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 15, 2020, 06:12:37 PM
Randy has an eye for detail and he noticed it appear my pistons were too high.

The deck height is off.

Randy was right. Or was it Robert? Or Noel? ;)


The copper base gasket measured .60mm which is probably not 100% accurate, I'll check again.

I did measure it multiple times, but Cometic only makes them in .020" (.50mm), but the gasket could be from somewhere else.


The piston seems to be approximately .15mm (.005") above the deck.

Should it be even with the deck or below?


If so, can I use a fiber gasket with the copper gasket or do I need to use one gasket of the correct size?

And finally, for this phase, should I spray the copper gaskets with a sealant (Permatex Copper Spray-A-Gasket or ???)?
I've read you say none, but, well......I had to ask. :i_am_so_happy:


Confirmed the current copper base gasket is .020/.50mm and now I have extra button batteries for my digital caliper. :)

With the ".010" I ordered, the piston should be .005 under - If so, I'll possible order the C8240 .005 to make it as close to perfect as possible, if needed.

Thoughts?


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: racerrad8 on May 15, 2020, 06:41:19 PM

I sent an email this afternoon, but I wasn't aware noel was assisting you.

I will step aside and let him be your sole source of technical information.

Randy - RPM


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 15, 2020, 11:01:32 PM

I sent an email this afternoon, but I wasn't aware noel was assisting you.

I will step aside and let him be your sole source of technical information.

Randy - RPM

Note the "winkie"

Please note the "winkie"!

 :flag_of_truce:


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 16, 2020, 09:24:33 PM
Wanting to "cc" my combustion chamber(s), I needed plugs and found some ancient relics from way back in the last century.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 21, 2020, 10:07:48 AM
I tried to use a 5cc syringe to measure the chamber volume, and it seemed to be close to 28cc.

Each cylinder should be 328.5cc, divided by 28cc, equals 11.7 to 1

Forgot the head gasket, which should add 5cc(?), and I'm going to install another base gasket lowering the piston a tad, another 2cc (?), that's 7 cc.

28 + 7 = 32. That comes to 10.26cc, which would be fantastic, except for one little detail.

I completely forgot about that piston dome.

Holy cow, these must be some higher compression pistons than I originally thought. The previous owner was running racing fuels, and he did remove the starter and used a gasoline powered devise to spin the rear wheel to get it running.

Originally I assumed he pulled the starter to save weight, a theory others who knew him shared as well. Maybe he pulled it because it was not strong enough for the compression he was running.

So here is where I am at:

100 ml burette is on order. I'm going to measure the volume of the chamber with the engine assembled. I'm considering using 0W-20 engine oil as my fluid, and using a little grease on the top ring to assure it seals.

Once that parameter has been defined, we'll know what needs to be done next. We do have a local gasoline station that has 110 octane race gas, so running that is not out of the question, if needed.

Time will tell......

I want to thank Randy, Robert, RPM and all of you that have helped me through this.  Your help has been invaluable and it is very much appreciated.



Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 21, 2020, 10:47:32 AM
Steve, are you able to shave the piston crown? Randy did that to get my compression down to 10.5-1.
For a street air cooled engine with carbs, that’s the max I would go with our Calif. piss water E10 gas.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 21, 2020, 11:49:23 AM
Steve, are you able to shave the piston crown? Randy did that to get my compression down to 10.5-1.
For a street air cooled engine with carbs, that’s the max I would go with our Calif. piss water E10 gas.

I should be able to shave them a bit, if needed.

I'm not planning on this being a daily rider motor, but would like it to be somewhat function for a couple hundred mile day, but most importantly, I really want to break a hundred in the eighth mile on a FJ.

I'm lighter now than I have been in decades, that will help. But I'm going to need a lot more horsepower than I'm currently putting out.

Anyway -

You can still find alcohol free in one of these Cali cities -

Brand
Brawley
Carlsbad
Chico
Cloverdale
Corning
Covelo
Downey
Eureka
Fortuna
Garberville
Grass Valley
Hesperia
Long Beach
Placerville
Redding
Redwood Valley
Riverside
Sacramento
Salton Sea Bch
San Diego
Ukiah
Van Nuys
Weaverville
Westminster
West Sacramento

https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=CA (https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=CA)

Thanks Pat


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 21, 2020, 12:03:20 PM
Mail came early today -

Hylomar came recommended and what is that in front of the can?

More boxes due tomorrow


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: fj1289 on May 21, 2020, 11:55:05 PM
I think you’ve got enough for that 100 mph in the 1/8th. 

My street bike setup was:
1314 engine, street ported head with drop-in mega cycle cams and flat side carbs.
Front end strapped and rear lowered with longer links and an air shifter
 

Best run was at Bandimere (5,800’ elevation):
60'         1.6670   
330'       4.4890
1/8        6.8910   @  101.94
1/4       10.7950  @  124.67

I think you’ll have plenty of power closer to sea level. 


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: racerrad8 on May 22, 2020, 09:17:54 AM
... what is that in front of the can?

I know, but I'm not going to spill the beans. I have one as well, just different.

There should be one other member of this forum who has the answer based on his vast experience with the FJ engine. :bomb:
Although I doubt he'll respond since you have rise to a level where he can't offer you the olive branch...

Randy - RPM



Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: Old Rider on May 22, 2020, 10:17:04 AM
Isn't that the good old drb2 that Chrysler used but for bikes ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXW0bx_Ooq4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXW0bx_Ooq4)


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 22, 2020, 05:54:23 PM
I think you’ve got enough for that 100 mph in the 1/8th. 

My street bike setup was:
1314 engine, street ported head with drop-in mega cycle cams and flat side carbs.
Front end strapped and rear lowered with longer links and an air shifter
 

Best run was at Bandimere (5,800’ elevation):
60'         1.6670   
330'       4.4890
1/8        6.8910   @  101.94
1/4       10.7950  @  124.67

I think you’ll have plenty of power closer to sea level. 

Excellent information, thank you!

What gearing did you go with?


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 22, 2020, 05:55:21 PM
... what is that in front of the can?

I know, but I'm not going to spill the beans. I have one as well, just different.

There should be one other member of this forum who has the answer based on his vast experience with the FJ engine. :bomb:
Although I doubt he'll respond since you have rise to a level where he can't offer you the olive branch...

Randy - RPM



Now where did I put that 10 foot pole.......

 :rofl2:


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: PaulG on May 22, 2020, 09:28:02 PM
Mail came early today -

Hylomar came recommended and what is that in front of the can?

More boxes due tomorrow

Well to me it looks like a burette clamp for lab analysis.  :scratch_one-s_head: 


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 22, 2020, 10:28:19 PM


Well to me it looks like a burette clamp for lab analysis.  :scratch_one-s_head: 

Winner winner chicken dinner!


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: fj1289 on May 23, 2020, 08:46:55 AM
I think you’ve got enough for that 100 mph in the 1/8th. 

My street bike setup was:
1314 engine, street ported head with drop-in mega cycle cams and flat side carbs.
Front end strapped and rear lowered with longer links and an air shifter
 

Best run was at Bandimere (5,800’ elevation):
60'         1.6670   
330'       4.4890
1/8        6.8910   @  101.94
1/4       10.7950  @  124.67

I think you’ll have plenty of power closer to sea level. 

Excellent information, thank you!

What gearing did you go with?

Pretty sure I was 16/42.  May want to try 17/41 or 42.  Sometimes gearing too steep can make it less forgiving and harder to be consistent.   


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: PaulG on May 23, 2020, 07:28:19 PM


Well to me it looks like a burette clamp for lab analysis.  :scratch_one-s_head: 

Winner winner chicken dinner!


As long as it doesn't come in a bucket I'm good with that!  So next question .... what purpose does it serve for the FJ?  RPM gave a hint, but I'm not a member of The Super Secret Guild Of Extraordinary Mechanic Guru Guys & Girls.  Fit that on a T shirt.



Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on May 23, 2020, 10:29:56 PM

As long as it doesn't come in a bucket I'm good with that!  So next question .... what purpose does it serve for the FJ?  RPM gave a hint, but I'm not a member of The Super Secret Guild Of Extraordinary Mechanic Guru Guys & Girls.  Fit that on a T shirt.




The part mounts on a rod and is easily adjustable allowing for a variety of mounting options.

It's used to hold the graduated cylinder (aka Burette or buret) used to measure the combustion chamber volume accurately.


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on June 02, 2020, 06:19:07 PM
Burette finally FINALLY arrived
I almost cried.....


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: fj1289 on June 02, 2020, 07:41:51 PM
Maybe try a steady hand and a finely graduated syringe?


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: FJ1200W on June 03, 2020, 11:11:35 AM
Maybe try a steady hand and a finely graduated syringe?

I tried but was not pleased with the consistency.

JB Weld might work - that's my Go-2!  :yahoo:

I'll try some shrink tubing to hold it together, then JB's over that.

Crossing my fingers.......


Title: Re: Project Motor Swap
Post by: ribbert on June 04, 2020, 03:29:52 AM
Maybe try a steady hand and a finely graduated syringe?

I tried but was not pleased with the consistency.

JB Weld might work - that's my Go-2!  :yahoo:

I'll try some shrink tubing to hold it together, then JB's over that.

Crossing my fingers.......


That's bad luck, you didn't happen to share that old Missourian saying with the company you bought it from did you? 

I don't think heat shrink will work in that location. This is one of those applications where cyanoacrylate glues work best, they seem to perform really well on that sort of break. You could then use something like JB to "gusset" the join externally and give some added strength (as long as whatever you use will stick to glass and set hard)

I hear someone facetiously speculated about me owning one. Well, much to his disappointment, I do. :biggrin: (and somewhere, even a stand and a piece of drilled acrylic)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49968953578_75d626e3cb_c.jpg)

Noel