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General Category => Maintenance => Topic started by: Tapartacus on August 16, 2020, 02:12:17 PM



Title: Clutch?
Post by: Tapartacus on August 16, 2020, 02:12:17 PM
Hi everyone. It’s been a while since I posted. Hope everyone is finding their peace in these strange times. I have a quick question about the clutch in my 92. It doesn’t slip but it is difficult to put in gear. Can I assume the clutch is toast? The bike has 25 thousand miles on it which seems a bit early to have to replace the clutch. I also replaced the master cylinder with an FJR 14 mm one about 10 thousand miles ago. When I originally found I was having trouble putting the bike in gear I realized the fluid was low and topped it up. Unfortunately that didn’t help.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: red on August 16, 2020, 02:58:38 PM
Hi everyone.  I have a quick question about the clutch in my 92. It doesn’t slip but it is difficult to put in gear. Can I assume the clutch is toast?
Tapartacus,

There is a brass bushing in the clutch lever that pushes the Rod, Push (Index #3 on this fiche) into the clutch master cylinder.  If that piece is worn or deformed, the clutch will act as you describe.  There may be nothing wrong with the clutch, but that bushing may be toast.  See Index #4:

https://www.partsfish.com/oemparts/a/yam/50043252f8700209bc78b255/front-master-cylinder-2 (https://www.partsfish.com/oemparts/a/yam/50043252f8700209bc78b255/front-master-cylinder-2)

RPM has them; no need to buy a full rebuild kit to get one small bushing.  Lube that brass part, on a regular basis.  Also, check if there is any excess play in the clutch lever pivot.  

The Part Numbers for the FJR1300 and the FJ1100 are the same for Index #4.
.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: Tapartacus on August 16, 2020, 03:02:06 PM
 My master cylinder is that of a 2013 FJR


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: red on August 16, 2020, 03:08:16 PM
My master cylinder is that of a 2013 FJR
Tapartacus,

I just checked, the Part Numbers for Index #4 are the same for both bikes.

http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AClutchLeverPivot (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3AClutchLeverPivot)
.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: Tapartacus on August 16, 2020, 04:20:24 PM
Great I’ll have a look thank you.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: krusty on August 16, 2020, 04:43:23 PM
Have you serviced or checked the slave cylinder? It can get a bit grotty down there. The piston could be sticking due crud or corrosion or both.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: FJ_Hooligan on August 16, 2020, 09:51:16 PM
When a clutch is worn out, it means the plates have worn so much that it doesn't "lock up" well and thus slips under load.

What you're describing is the opposite.  That means the plates are not getting separated enough and it's causing the plates to drag which makes shifting difficult.

25 thousand miles is NOTHING for these bikes and their clutch.  I hardly think it's worn out unless it's been horribly abused.  One member had over 250,000 miles on his original clutch.

I once tried an FJR clutch master cylinder on my '85 FJ and it was useless.  It did not push enough fluid to disengage the clutch and caused noticeable drag that made shifting difficult at best.  I switched back to the original master cylinder and everything went back to normal.

I'd suggest going back to your original MC and see if that helps.  Also, check the slave cylinder for leakage or corrosion.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: Bones on August 16, 2020, 09:52:45 PM
Have you adjusted the span on the lever, I’ve got mine on number 1, number 5 has the lever sitting too close to the grip and doesn’t have enough throw to release the clutch properly.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: TomJK on August 16, 2020, 11:56:50 PM
Hi
Usually needs bleeding...
Cheers, Tom


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: fj-f3a on August 17, 2020, 12:23:25 AM
Recently, I renewed the friction discs of the clutch in my 91.

I was having the exact opposite problem, the clutch dragging making it impossible, not almost, to find neutral with the engine running.

Upon removal of the clutch side cover, I actuated the clutch lever and observed the action of the pressure plate.

What I noticed was interesting. The plate did not remain perpendicular to the axis of the push rod. Instead, it twisted and, for want of a better way to describe it, the edge of the pressure plate remained in contact with the clutch pack.

At our last man shed day, we installed a second diaphragm spring as suggested on this site to prevent the clutch slipping. I started having problems about three months later.

The old friction discs measured 3mm in thickness, worn 0.1mm. This equates to a total pre-load loss of about 1.5mm.

1.5mm is approximately half the travel of the slave cylinder with the OEM 16mm master cylinder.

Now, we all know that the Total Travel of the slave cylinder remains constant, owing to the design of the hydraulic system with the balance port but, this is not the important thing here.
What I believe is important is the removal of pre-load from the spring as the pack wares and again, for want of a better way of explaining it, the subsequent lengthening of the spring.
IMHO, this tends to make the twisting action more pronounced.

So, for what it is worth, after checking the usual suspects, master and slave cylinder seals, brass bush, corrosion in the slave cylinder and, most important, that the balance port is indeed open when the lever is released (this can be ascertained by observing a spurt of fluid from the port when the lever is first actuated), don’t hesitate to replace the friction discs and if necessary, the steel plates. Stop looking for a “Quick Fix”. Changing the clutch pack is quick and not all that expensive.

If you have greatly increased the HP of your bike, you may need an extra/ heavier springs.
Again, IMO, more discs would be a better alternative but, unfortunately, this is not possible.

I did do the Barnett conversion and all problems are solved. The lever is quite high and will take some getting use to. Also, I used the heavier springs because I thought they would be advantageous towing my trailer.

Like the original pressure plate, I noticed that the Barnett plate did not remain perpendicular to the axis of the push rod when the clutch was released. I have an idea for this and will keep you all informed.

BTW, even the Hays manual mentions one possible clutch problem is a Spring which has become uneven in its tension.

Just my Two Bob’s worth.

Gavin


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: Tapartacus on August 18, 2020, 04:55:21 PM
Wow lots of info there! Thanks everyone, will consider all options. I thought I would start here for some suggestions as my local bile shop wants 900 bucks(Canadian) to replace clutch! Thanks again will report back.
Andrew


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: Bill_Rockoff on August 19, 2020, 05:51:55 AM
That would have been a frustrating use of $900, since it wouldn't have solved your problem at all, it would only have replaced some perfectly-good parts with other newer also-perfectly-good parts. That never helps anything.

If your motorcycle shifted easily with your FJR master cylinder for the last 10,000 miles, and only recently stopped shifting easily, that doesn't sound like a problem caused by changing to an FJR master cylinder 10,000 miles ago. (If changing to the FJR master was the problem and changing back to the FJ one was actually the solution, you would have noticed worse shifting immediately after you finished installing the FJR master cylinder, not 10,000 miles later.)

Topping up the fluid helps, but there's still air in the line. I have had good luck wiggling the flexible part of the line to get the air bubbles to rise to the top.

This is a temporary solution, of course, because there shouldn't be air in the line at all, and there shouldn't be a low fluid level. What you probably need is to replace the clutch slave cylinder seal.
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3AS%2FK (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3AS%2FK)
It's an inexpensive part (twenty bucks US) that is known to have kind of a short service life on these bikes. When it fails, it causes the two exact symptoms you described (low fluid level, harder to shift) plus a third symptom you probably have but either didn't notice or didn't mention (soft lever.) When I commuted on my bike in summer traffic, I was replacing that seal about once a year for a while, I think I've done it seven or eight times on my bike, including an entire master cylinder replacement one of those times. The seal gets brittle and hard after a few years, which is why it causes this problem in the first place, so be careful when removing the old one not to cut yourself or scratch any shiny surfaces prying it out or cutting it apart in place to remove it.

It is SUCH a common FJ issue that I am surprised nobody has already suggested it here already.

By which I mean, I am "surprised" the same way I would be "surprised" if you mentioned that your motorcycle doesn't corner very well after 5,000 miles on your current tires, which you have noticed are somewhat flatter across the middle than you remember them being, and your local shop has quoted you $3,000 to replace the wheels, and all these wise and knowledgeable FJ folks chimed in with advice like "maybe it's your air pressure, try adding more air" and "have you tried upgrading to wider wheels? I put a 17x5.5 GSXR wheel on mine and now it corners like a GSXR" and "how are your wheel bearings? you may need new wheel bearings, I measured mine once and found that I needed them because mine twisted in a barely-measurable way" and I am wondering "Jesus Christ, it needs TIRES, how is nobody else seeing that? I can't be the only one who thinks it's probably just that the rubber part that always wears out has worn out, and it's simply time to replace the worn-out rubber part that always wears out with a new unworn rubber part?" Somehow "surprised" doesn't cover it, really. None of my kids ever smeared feces on the wall or poked metal things into electrical sockets, but if they ever did one of those things - particularly now, given that they are adults with jobs and their own homes and families - I imagine that whatever I would feel in addition to "surprised" (horrified? dismayed?) is pretty close to how I feel reading the suggestions we have compiled for you here in this thread that have somehow all managed to miss the most likely answer.

Replace that $21 slave cylinder seal. Clean the hydraulic piston and cylinder surfaces with brake cleaner while it's apart, because crud (or even a bit of corrosion) can build up there. If you ride in traffic or in hot weather, you will need to do this again in 10,000 miles, so maybe buy two and have one for next time.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: Old Rider on August 19, 2020, 06:32:49 AM
One more tip you MUST try: Tie the lever into handlebar overnight ...  Do the same for brakelever  you will be surpriced..
If it helped then you know it was because of air in the system. If the problem comes back fast you got an airleak in the master cylinder or at the slave cylinder seal or in the bleedscrew


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: krusty on August 19, 2020, 07:28:41 AM
That would have been a frustrating use of $900, since it wouldn't have solved your problem at all, it would only have replaced some perfectly-good parts with other newer also-perfectly-good parts. That never helps anything.

If your motorcycle shifted easily with your FJR master cylinder for the last 10,000 miles, and only recently stopped shifting easily, that doesn't sound like a problem caused by changing to an FJR master cylinder 10,000 miles ago. (If changing to the FJR master was the problem and changing back to the FJ one was actually the solution, you would have noticed worse shifting immediately after you finished installing the FJR master cylinder, not 10,000 miles later.)

Topping up the fluid helps, but there's still air in the line. I have had good luck wiggling the flexible part of the line to get the air bubbles to rise to the top.

This is a temporary solution, of course, because there shouldn't be air in the line at all, and there shouldn't be a low fluid level. What you probably need is to replace the clutch slave cylinder seal.
[url]http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3AS%2FK[/url] ([url]http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Clutch%3AS%2FK[/url])
It's an inexpensive part (twenty bucks US) that is known to have kind of a short service life on these bikes. When it fails, it causes the two exact symptoms you described (low fluid level, harder to shift) plus a third symptom you probably have but either didn't notice or didn't mention (soft lever.) When I commuted on my bike in summer traffic, I was replacing that seal about once a year for a while, I think I've done it seven or eight times on my bike, including an entire master cylinder replacement one of those times. The seal gets brittle and hard after a few years, which is why it causes this problem in the first place, so be careful when removing the old one not to cut yourself or scratch any shiny surfaces prying it out or cutting it apart in place to remove it.

It is SUCH a common FJ issue that I am surprised nobody has already suggested it here already.

By which I mean, I am "surprised" the same way I would be "surprised" if you mentioned that your motorcycle doesn't corner very well after 5,000 miles on your current tires, which you have noticed are somewhat flatter across the middle than you remember them being, and your local shop has quoted you $3,000 to replace the wheels, and all these wise and knowledgeable FJ folks chimed in with advice like "maybe it's your air pressure, try adding more air" and "have you tried upgrading to wider wheels? I put a 17x5.5 GSXR wheel on mine and now it corners like a GSXR" and "how are your wheel bearings? you may need new wheel bearings, I measured mine once and found that I needed them because mine twisted in a barely-measurable way" and I am wondering "Jesus Christ, it needs TIRES, how is nobody else seeing that? I can't be the only one who thinks it's probably just that the rubber part that always wears out has worn out, and it's simply time to replace the worn-out rubber part that always wears out with a new unworn rubber part?" Somehow "surprised" doesn't cover it, really. None of my kids ever smeared feces on the wall or poked metal things into electrical sockets, but if they ever did one of those things - particularly now, given that they are adults with jobs and their own homes and families - I imagine that whatever I would feel in addition to "surprised" (horrified? dismayed?) is pretty close to how I feel reading the suggestions we have compiled for you here in this thread that have somehow all managed to miss the most likely answer.

Replace that $21 slave cylinder seal. Clean the hydraulic piston and cylinder surfaces with brake cleaner while it's apart, because crud (or even a bit of corrosion) can build up there. If you ride in traffic or in hot weather, you will need to do this again in 10,000 miles, so maybe buy two and have one for next time.

See reply #5.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: Millietant on August 19, 2020, 07:37:54 AM
I like your choice of words Andrew - if a shop wanted me to pay 900 buck (Canadian) to replace my FJ clutch, I'd call them a BILE dealer too.......that's a ridiculous amount of money and it seems like they haven't even mentioned the easy/obvious issues that could be tried for just a few bucks (Canadian).

As others have said a failing, worn out, clutch is usually a slipping clutch. Your problems definitely seem more likely to be due to air in the system, a leaking slave cylinder seal (as per Krusty), or possibly, but unlikely, a leaky master cylinder seal. If it was my bike I'd take off the slave cylinder and replace the seal (and give everything a thorough clean), then thoroughly bleed the system to make sure there's no air in it. If that didn't cure it, I'd refresh the master cylinder seals (another low cost kit) and bleed again...but, by the time I got to this, I might already be thinking about changing the original clutch hose (probably old and spongy) for a braided stainless steel one (again the cost is in multiples of 10 bucks, not 100's of bucks).

The most difficult of part of all of this is making sure the system is properly bled. I had a nightmare doing mine last time, until I used a small hand pump to push fluid through the bleed nipple on the slave cylinder, back up to the master cylinder.......problem solved and system devoid of air in about 20 seconds.

This is the pump I use (the brand is Laser), again it cost just a few pounds/bucks. Best of luck and hope you get it sorted quickly and cheaply  :good2:

Wow lots of info there! Thanks everyone, will consider all options. I thought I would start here for some suggestions as my local bile shop wants 900 bucks(Canadian) to replace clutch! Thanks again will report back.
Andrew


(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/6213_19_08_20_7_33_35.jpeg)


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: T Legg on August 19, 2020, 08:09:16 AM
One more tip you MUST try: Tie the lever into handlebar overnight ...  Do the same for brakelever  you will be surpriced..
If it helped then you know it was because of air in the system. If the problem comes back fast you got an airleak in the master cylinder or at the slave cylinder seal or in the bleedscrew

.                 I tried this method a few times without success on a soft front brake then like Bill Rockoff I was tapping the brake lines to get the air bubbles to rise when it occurred to me to start the bike and let it idle for five minutes. That did the trick the brakes were firm again. Now when I'm waiting at lights sometimes  l hold the clutch or brake lever in to clear any air bubbles .


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: ribbert on August 19, 2020, 08:46:48 AM

At our last man shed day, we installed a second diaphragm spring as suggested on this site to prevent the clutch slipping. I started having problems about three months later.

Gavin

That's quite a journey Gavin, I'm surprised you went down that path, (and to be fair, it's only the suggestion of some)...and surprised you fitted a Barnett coil clutch.

Anyway, you now have a clutch that doesn't slip. If you tire of the pull you could try one of these and review it for us, they remove 75% of the pull required, making the clutch truly a one finger operation.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcR9RShJDs-iJQh25QlzRwrBwioEcGd86mN-NQ&usqp=CAU)

"Clake" clutch m/c

Noel


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: ribbert on August 19, 2020, 09:10:04 AM

What you probably need is to replace the clutch slave cylinder seal....It's an inexpensive part (twenty bucks US) that is known to have kind of a short service life on these bikes. I was replacing that seal about once a year for a while, I think I've done it seven or eight times

It is SUCH a common FJ issue that I am surprised nobody has already suggested it here already.

.... you will need to do this again in 10,000 miles, so maybe buy two and have one for next time.

Bill, somethings not right there, your experience is not typical. You should only need to do that maybe a couple of times in the life of the bike. I would however recommend only replacing the seal once and then replace the whole slave cylinder the next time, it's only alloy, or get it lined.

Mine still has the original cylinder and I've only replaced one cup, it's done 265,000km. Admittedly, over the last few years it's become weepy a few times but fresh fluid has bought me a couple of years each time. One of our local members found a brake service that will fit them with a SS sleeve for a great price, which I think I'll get done while we're in lock-down (and can't ride).
A new cylinder would see my riding days out but at the moment, the SS liner is actually way cheaper (with the exchange rate and freight) and will last 100 years!

Noel


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: Bill_Rockoff on August 19, 2020, 10:01:20 AM
Ah yes, post #5, and I missed the entire thing.

Noel, mine has only done about 80% the distance yours has, but 20 years ago it was spending a lot of time idling in traffic, in a relatively hot urban environment. (From what I read, "Cowra" is pretty close to our climate here, but with traffic somewhere between Melbourne and Los Angeles.) There would be not enough movement to provide much cooling, but also too much movement to allow you to just shut the engine down and duck-walk it. I probably should have taken the car, but I was stubborn and I think I needed to ride more than I needed to be free of some easy maintenance activities. I may not have needed to replace that seal two consecutive years more than one pair of consecutive years, I was being a little hyperbolic there, but from 1995 to 2005 I probably replaced that seal five or six times, and the valve cover gasket twice, and the valve cover bolt grommets twice as well. I only recall doing these things once or twice apiece since then. Such is life in a summer full of 36C hour-long commutes where you are within site of the same structure for 10 minutes at a time, a couple of different times during each trip home, with an air-cooled engine. A coworker with a 911 and an air-cooled Ducati had similar challenges for a while.

The hot parts of this motorcycle began to last longer as my commute changed over the years. My carpool obligations stopped coinciding with the worst afternoon traffic, my commute got more flexible, and I got a car with air conditioning that became my first choice for the hottest parts of summer. But those ten years probably explain why it weeps a little from the head gasket and base gasket even today, and why it burns a good bit of oil in the last few years. I have sure spent a lot of time pondering a small cooling fan on an FJ oil cooler.



Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: fj1289 on August 19, 2020, 02:32:13 PM
I know it is more money, but I usually order a new slave cylinder now.  I’ve had two that were pitted bad enough a new seal wasn’t going to be a reliable solution.   Then, if I get the slave off and it is rebuildable, it gets a new seal and goes into the spares bin for next time.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: Pat Conlon on August 19, 2020, 03:53:05 PM
Chris, I like Simon’s solution.....no more soft aluminum bores to pit.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=12294.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=12294.0)


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: Troyskie on August 19, 2020, 11:09:31 PM
Give everything a good clean, flush and thorough bleed before any major expense.
If you've only 'topped up' then the fluid is trash. Especially if you topped up from fluid in a previously opened container.

As the others have said, it is most likely the slave. After all, who wants to be a slave?

You may as well clean, flush and bleed the brakes as well cause the fluid will be trash if you try to keep a 'half full' bottle. Never keep unused brake fluid. It's buggered.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: Motofun on August 20, 2020, 06:36:25 AM
I guess I'll be the "science denier" here........I use open bottles of brake fluid!  At $16 a half pint I'm too cheap to just throw it away.  With a dozen bikes and bi-yearly brake fluid flushes it doesn't sit for years on the shelf but it may go for 6 months or so.  You do know the reservoirs are vented, right?  I put the cap back on tight and use it up.  If the bottle is nearly empty then it's a different story.  The race bikes are a bit different and they get flushed mid season and over the winter rebuild.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: ribbert on August 20, 2020, 07:51:48 AM
I guess I'll be the "science denier" here........I use open bottles of brake fluid!  At $16 a half pint I'm too cheap to just throw it away.  With a dozen bikes and bi-yearly brake fluid flushes it doesn't sit for years on the shelf but it may go for 6 months or so.  You do know the reservoirs are vented, right?  I put the cap back on tight and use it up.  If the bottle is nearly empty then it's a different story.  The race bikes are a bit different and they get flushed mid season and over the winter rebuild.

I'll back you up on this occasion, as you were writing that, I was writing this to someone else...

".... manufacturers recommend that fluid be used within 12 mths of opening, which is probably conservative (being a manufacturers recommendation)
I wouldn't recommend anyone else follow my example, but it's not something I've ever worried about much. The flushing of fluid routinely as part of a vehicles service schedule is a relatively new thing and I will use anything in the cupboard regardless of age or when it was opened. I guess this habit has developed from decades of never observing any adverse outcomes from doing so.

It is important though to let it stand for 24 hrs if you drop the bottle or if it gets shaken, it will remain aerated for quite a while and takes that long to settle..... "


Noel


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: red on August 20, 2020, 08:32:16 AM
I guess I'll be the "science denier" here........I use open bottles of brake fluid!  At $16 a half pint I'm too cheap to just throw it away.  With a dozen bikes and bi-yearly brake fluid flushes it doesn't sit for years on the shelf but it may go for 6 months or so.  You do know the reservoirs are vented, right?  I put the cap back on tight and use it up.
Motofun,

Ummm . . . No.  The reservoirs (should) have a diaphragm-folded (bellows) sheet that goes down as brake fluid is used, following the fluid level, without letting outside air touch the brake fluid.  Air is vented into the reservoir above that diaphragm, certainly, but the diaphragm prevents that air from getting to the brake fluid.  Now if the diaphragm is punctured, then it will not do its' job, and outside air would circulate over the brake fluid (BAD NEWS!).  If you open the reservoir, find that the brake fluid is low, and the diaphragm has NOT extended itself down to the fluid level, then the diaphragm has failed (it is cracked or punctured) and the diaphragm should be replaced.  Usually that will mean needing a new (not used) reservoir cap.

Opening a new can of brake fluid briefly to fill a brake reservoir is okay, if you do not set the open can down somewhere while you do other stuff.  Open, pour, cap back on tightly on the can and the brake reservoir, fine.  It is wise (not cheaper) to buy small cans of brake fluid, so there will be less air inside an opened can, and a new container will be opened sooner.  Big bottles of brake fluid that sit half-full for a year can be a false (and dangerous) economy.
.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: Motofun on August 21, 2020, 05:50:59 AM
I'll hazard a guess and say I use my brakes as hard as anyone here.  Slowing down from 170 to 30 for a turn multiple times a lap on my GSXR 1000R does require decent brakes.  I've never had an issue with the fluid, brake fade or other item like boiling.  To each his own.  If you have to think about a potential problem and it causes you to second guess yourself then by all means fix it.  I'll admit that I'm that way about tires.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: ribbert on August 21, 2020, 08:56:50 AM
I'll hazard a guess and say I use my brakes as hard as anyone here.  Slowing down from 170 to 30 for a turn multiple times a lap on my GSXR 1000R does require decent brakes.  I've never had an issue with the fluid, brake fade or other item like boiling.  To each his own.  If you have to think about a potential problem and it causes you to second guess yourself then by all means fix it.  I'll admit that I'm that way about tires.

That doesn't surprise me. Bike brakes don't get that hot in normal use (compared to cars). Look at the rotor size and pad area compared to your car, they're much the same size and stopping a fraction of the weight. The short leverage, short travel, unassisted, hand operated brakes can't be applied that hard.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/7338/12144183003_ef8d4200ab_b.jpg)

I've had these smelling, creaking, changing colour from max rate full stops from top speed, race track use and descended mountains flat out and never had a hint of fade. The fluid has been in there since mid 2012.
For really hard riding I actually prefer my FJ brakes over the 320mm power assisted Brembos on the other bike, and when those HH pads get really hot, the brakes go up another level.

As I said yesterday, I'm in now way recommending that as a good practice but it was the norm for much of working life and I've never had occasion to change my ways. My point is, terrible things won't happen if you're a bit sloppy with the storage, age and change intervals of brake fluid.

As Motofun said, if it worries you, do it by the book. However, if you bend the rules a bit, your calipers won't turn into pumpkins at midnight.

How many of you routinely change out the fluid on your cars?

Noel


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: Old Rider on August 21, 2020, 09:38:46 AM
I replace brakefluid every 2 years and the reason is i have lost brakes 2 times once i was driving down from the mountains  steep downhill for a long time i braked with the engine but that was not enough and suddenly i just had about
10 % of breaking power i was lucky as the steep road was flatting out .  That car i had just had a few months and did not know how the condition of the brake fluid
was.
Another time i lost all brakepower coming fast into a intersection the brake pedal slammed to the floor with a bang and i run at red light before even react and  grabbed the handbrake   i almost crashed.When i inspected one of the front brakelines (similar to the ones on a fj ) it had ripped .A car does have 2 separate systems but that time i lost all
brakepower for some reason.
I also lost front brakes on a Honda XL600 i rented on a vacation in spain. about 150 meters from the rentalshop i was accelerating down the road coming into a intersection i wanted to brake but there was no front brake so i drove thru the  intersection with a sliding locked rear tire .

Here in Norway 2 years ago there was a horrific accident killing 5 persons driving a Cadillac Coupe de Ville from 1959.They was driving down a steep curvy downhill
montainroad and then crashed right into a mountain wall in a curve at high speed. The investigation concluded it was brake fading because of bad maintenance.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: X-Ray on August 21, 2020, 05:58:11 PM
Following on from what Noel and Pat mentioned earlier, a couple of us in Australia have had our clutch slaves refurbed with a s/s sleeve. This I would think would be a permanent solution to the std alloy bore pitting over time, and would just need seals replacing from time to time from then on. With 3 FJs in the shed now, I will have the other 2 clutch slaves resleeved when leaky time occurs again on those bikes.

I actually bought a new clutch slave from Randy a couple of years back for my '93, and because I don't ride the bikes much, I think just sitting in the shed doing nothing causes the seals to start weeping early, (as happened with the new RPM slave. The '93 was off the road for 8 months during a rebuild)

Anyway, all good now  :good2:


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: ribbert on August 22, 2020, 06:08:04 AM

Here in Norway 2 years ago there was a horrific accident killing 5 persons driving a Cadillac Coupe de Ville from 1959.They was driving down a steep curvy downhill
montainroad and then crashed right into a mountain wall in a curve at high speed. The investigation concluded it was brake fading because of bad maintenance.


A behemoth like a ’59 Cadillac with drum brakes on a long continuous, winding descent is a "perfect storm" for brake fade. The hand brake on old cars was commonly called the “emergency brake” for good reason and was usually independent of the main brakes, also for good reason.

Many of the older guys here will remember when learning to drive, being taught the technique for braking down long descents or when towing or from high speed to avoid fade. They probably also remember scaring themselves half to death by ignoring that advice.
This happens with discs but nowhere near to the extent or ease it does with drums. But, as mentioned yesterday, car brakes get much hotter and drum brakes are another whole subject again.


The most common cause of brake fade is a loss of friction between the pad and the rotor, not from overheating the fluid.

Noel


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: red on August 22, 2020, 09:32:22 AM
I replace brakefluid every 2 years and the reason is i have lost brakes 2 times
Here in Norway 2 years ago there was a horrific accident killing 5 persons driving a Cadillac Coupe de Ville from 1959.They was driving down a steep curvy downhill
montainroad and then crashed right into a mountain wall in a curve at high speed. The investigation concluded it was brake fading because of bad maintenance.
Old Rider,

We had something similar happen here (ending when the minivan went over a cliff, stopping upside down just short of the severe drop-off.  Everybody was badly shaken, but okay).  The driver had started the engine when cold, at the top of the hill.  The automatic choke includes a fast-idle setting when cold, which does not release until the engine is warm and accelerator pedal is pressed lightly.  Going downhill with the fast-idle setting, the driver did not realize the cause, and certainly never touched the accelerator pedal.  The engine over-ran the brakes in a very short time, and only some good luck save the people inside.  We figured out the real cause when the driver complained later that the engine just kept racing, no matter how much brake was applied.
.


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: Old Rider on August 22, 2020, 11:19:50 AM
Red wrote:

We had something similar happen here (ending when the minivan went over a cliff, stopping upside down just short of the severe drop-off.  Everybody was badly shaken, but okay).  The driver had started the engine when cold, at the top of the hill.  The automatic choke includes a fast-idle setting when cold, which does not release until the engine is warm and accelerator pedal is pressed lightly.  Going downhill with the fast-idle setting, the driver did not realize the cause, and certainly never touched the accelerator pedal.  The engine over-ran the brakes in a very short time, and only some good luck save the people inside.  We figured out the real cause when the driver complained later that the engine just kept racing, no matter how much brake was applied.
.
Red
That sounded like a fun trip (popcorn)

Cheers Rolf


Title: Re: Clutch?
Post by: Old Rider on August 22, 2020, 11:23:32 AM
Quote from: Ribbert=topic=19540.msg199367#msg199367 date=1598024326




A behemoth like a ’59 Cadillac with drum brakes on a long continuous, winding descent is a "perfect storm" for brake fade. The hand brake on old cars was commonly called the “emergency brake” for good reason and was usually independent of the main brakes, also for good reason.

Many of the older guys here will remember when learning to drive, being taught the technique for braking down long descents or when towing or from high speed to avoid fade. They probably also remember scaring themselves half to death by ignoring that advice.
This happens with discs but nowhere near to the extent or ease it does with drums. But, as mentioned yesterday, car brakes get much hotter and drum brakes are another whole subject again.


The most common cause of brake fade is a loss of friction between the pad and the rotor, not from overheating the fluid.

Noel

Noel
I did not know that car had drumbrakes that would definitely be a extra bad factor on that heavy beast

Cheers Rolf