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General Category => Maintenance => Topic started by: Pat Conlon on September 25, 2020, 10:24:20 AM

Title: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 25, 2020, 10:24:20 AM
Hello good folks, I hope this post finds you and your loved ones healthy. I am looking forward to the future when things get better, and get better they will....count on it.

I have a question for the group. I would like to build a FJ engine frame that will allow me to use a conventional engine stand. This would allow access to the top end engine components, then, rotate the engine upside down for access to the bottom end.
We all know about the engine storage stands for the FJ engines, that's not what I'm talking about.
The FJ engine has a horizontal case so if you want access to the bottom end, you can't use the rear lower mounting points for the engine support. Only the rear upper mounts and the front mounts can be used if you want to be able to get the cases split.

Has anyone seen anything like this? Pictures are good.

I ran this question by our resident FJ racer, Chris (fj1289) and here is his response:

Quote from: fj1289 on September 24, 2020, 10:47:09 PM

Too funny Pat!  I was just working on that idea a few weeks ago.  Had a design figured out to use the rear engine mounts - uppers and lowers - and was getting the welder out when it suddenly dawned on me if I took the bottom case half off - the top half would just droop down to about vertical!  I stopped there and instead just wrestled with it on the bench.

Just went out to the garage to look at the cases.  I think it would be best to "mount" the top case half.  I envision attaching to the upper rear mount with the top "arms" of the engine stand.  Then fabricating some arm "struts" to go around the case to attach to the upper forward mounts from the bottom "arms" of the stand.  It would look somewhat like an aircraft engine mount structure.  Should triangulate it well enough to hold the entire engine weight.   Also would allow you to turn the engine over to remove all the lower end stuff and transmission.  Also allow you to pull the crankshaft. 

I'll have to revisit this idea - and maybe scrounge up some angle iron and steel tube .... maybe some steel plate ...


Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 25, 2020, 10:41:33 AM
Here is what Randy sent me, but as you see, both case halves have to be assembled to use the upper and lower rear mounts for the support of the engine.

(http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19594.0;attach=16193)
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: fj1289 on September 25, 2020, 02:46:12 PM
Pat -

1  don't see a pic

2  bought some material to try tonight (BUNCH of in-house renovations going on during daylight hours ...)
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 25, 2020, 07:01:00 PM
Hey Chris...Can you see Randy's pict now?
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: fj1289 on September 25, 2020, 09:22:44 PM
Nopers.  Also tried on the iPad and laptop  :unknown:
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 25, 2020, 09:45:16 PM
Let me try this....http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19594.0;attach=16193 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19594.0;attach=16193)

Here's Randy's quote:
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 25, 2020, 09:31:58 AM
BTW, I'll have to see if I can find it. I made a adapter for my engine hoist 20 plus years ago. I tried it a few times and then gave up. That was way back when the shop was still at my dads. I haven't seen it for years.

You cannot use it with the case being separated. The case has to be complete and then onto the stand to assemble the top end. Since that was just an extra step for me, I just keep them on the bench and complete the assembly.  It looked very similar to this.

Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: racerrad8 on September 25, 2020, 11:49:35 PM
Can you, or anyone see it now?

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 26, 2020, 12:01:38 AM
I can see it....then again, I could see my first picture....

Thanks Randy
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: fj1289 on September 26, 2020, 01:07:40 AM
Thanks Randy - can see your picture. 

That is similar to what I started to make - until I realized I couldn't split the cases.   

Started on another design - didn't have much time though.  Hopefully can finish cutting and get some welding done tomorrow.   
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Waiex191 on September 26, 2020, 09:21:22 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 25, 2020, 09:45:16 PM
Let me try this....http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19594.0;attach=16193 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=19594.0;attach=16193)

For IT purposes, your link gave me this:
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 26, 2020, 10:12:26 AM
Ok, thx Bryan
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: racerrad8 on September 26, 2020, 10:13:55 AM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 26, 2020, 12:01:38 AM
I can see it....then again, I could see my first picture....

Thanks Randy

Pat, somehow the way you attached the image is not allowing anyone but global moderators see it in the text. I just uploaded the attachment from my photo files on my computer. If you want to post the picture the way you did it, I think you have to use a third party host, flickr, Post Image, etc.

If you look at the text in the reply with quote, I can see the [IMG] code there, but nothing is showing up. When you are anything other than a global moderator, the off limits link posted is given to the user.

I have sent an email to my IT guy for him to look into it and see if something in the software has changed, unfortunately this is above my pay grade...

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 26, 2020, 10:15:17 AM
Ok, thx Randy, no worries.
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Brook on September 26, 2020, 01:27:51 PM
..... Randy, back in the day, when building a motor for the street (racing) or the roundy rounds. The mechanics in my

area/group would not build a racing motor, on a motor stand.    Because, of the off-set weight. They would say, that the

torque  measurements would not be the same, at both ends of the motor (the motor would stretch, on a motor stand) Do
you agree??

would that apply, to motorcycle motors, also??   
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 26, 2020, 01:49:00 PM
Well, that is interesting. I've not heard of that.

The concept of this FJ engine frame is that it will support the FJ engine on two points, located on opposite ends of the engine, the front and back upper engine mounts.  However, the frame itself will be cantilevered off the engine stand.
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Old Rider on September 26, 2020, 02:31:22 PM
Not sure i understand the question but how about this?
https://www.amazon.com/Supply-Metric-Engine-Stand-37-9352/dp/B000GV3DSE (https://www.amazon.com/Supply-Metric-Engine-Stand-37-9352/dp/B000GV3DSE)
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 26, 2020, 02:39:07 PM
That will definitely work, thanks for the link :good:

If I did not already have a engine stand, I would buy this^^
(and add a set of casters)
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: RPM - Robert on September 26, 2020, 04:43:52 PM
RPM is your best source for K&L parts and I am pretty sure we sell that engine stand for less than that, I will confirm next week.

I know Ron Chase has one of these stand when he rebuild his engine. You can see it in his very first post of his epic ride for his fathers birthday: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=10252.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=10252.0)

If anyone is interested, please let us know and we will take care of you.



Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 26, 2020, 06:54:02 PM
Ok, thanks Robert.... if I go that route, I'll wait to hear from you....no hurry.

Like I said, I already have an empty engine stand....a horseshoe type frame that supports the front and back upper mount points with side the rails in a neutral zone or at least far enough away to get the clutch basket, generator and starter out.
Other than than those 3,  I can't see any other big items you would need side access to...
Everything else would be top or bottom access.

If the side rails on the support frame causes me heartburn, I can always drop $200 with Robert.

I'll wait to see what our evil genius FJ racer comes up with....
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: fj1289 on September 27, 2020, 12:03:56 AM
Here is half way through try #1

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/171_26_09_20_10_47_09.jpeg)

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/171_26_09_20_10_48_06.jpeg)

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/171_26_09_20_10_49_04.jpeg)

I need to pick up another stick of the 1 inch square tube to use as the base to triangulate the support arms to the front mount.  Also a 2' piece of 3/8" all-thread for the front mounts - the bolts through the rubber bushings really like to twist.  

I didn't worry about clutch access - I'll do that in the frame.   Did make sure there was room to get a wrench on the crankshaft nut to turn the crank as needed  

The rear mounts are some chopped up Mopar big block engine mounts, the c-channel arms were left over from another project.  

After talking to Randy today, looks like I'll be splitting the 1314 engine again to check a few things that could be related to the shifting problems at the last race (2 years ago now  :cray:).  It'll be a good test for the stand - the crankshaft is heavy and pretty far out there ...

Had to remove the "embedded" url tags in the middle of my pics again ...
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: fj1289 on October 01, 2020, 10:47:21 PM
Lost my post again!  Back to writing it up in notepad first since either way I have to edit the pics to get them to show.

Added bracing to the front mounts that triangulates with the rear mount.  Still have to finish the welds, but it's all tacked into place now and seems to be fairly sturdy.

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/171_01_10_20_9_34_12_2.jpeg)


(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/171_01_10_20_9_34_11_1.jpeg)


(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/171_01_10_20_9_34_09_0.jpeg)
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: X-Ray on October 01, 2020, 10:56:42 PM
Great topic. Was looking at ways to do this recently as when I do the '84 1100 engine tidy up, I also have to replace the oil pump pick up screen, would like to do this on a stand of somesorts. A stable stand that will hold the engine and alllow it to rotate would be the answer
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: fj1289 on October 01, 2020, 11:22:38 PM
Old Rider in reply #15 probably has the easiest answer.   Like Pat, I already have an engine stand I'd like to use.

If you don't plan on splitting the cases, Randy's simpler style in reply #6 would work well too. 

If you want to play with a welder - this would be a good project...
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Pat Conlon on October 02, 2020, 02:21:25 AM
Looks good Chris, that's exactly how I envisioned the side bar support with the angled brace for mid span support. The angled brace works in both tension and compression, depending on which side is up.

The FJ engine weighs what? Around 200 lbs?
How much load on the front mount vs rear mount? The load distribution I suspect is not split an even 50%-50%.
I think the front of the engine is heavier with the crank, cylinder block and head...what do you guys think...60% load on the front mount and 40% on the rear mount....??
So, we need the cantilever front of the frame to be able to carry 120, or say 150 lbs for a safety factor....?
Comments welcome!

Thanks Chris, I think your design will work out fine. Much appreciated. :good2:

Pat
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: X-Ray on October 02, 2020, 02:46:43 AM
I wonder if Pat the weight of the gears assembly might even things out in the back half of the engine?
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: fj1289 on October 02, 2020, 08:42:26 AM
The crankshaft is usually the heaviest part of any engine.  That's my main concern for supporting weight.  I'm guessing it's at least a fourth of the total engine weight - maybe half of just the closed up cases (no cylinder, head, clutch, starter, alternator, etc). 

Hopefully over the next few days I can finish welding and put a coat of paint on it.   Then next week put the bottom end of the 1314 engine on it and have a go.  
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: RPM - Robert on October 02, 2020, 12:07:43 PM
If I remember correctly the crank is 27-28 lbs. without being balanced or lightened.
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: fj1289 on October 02, 2020, 03:18:37 PM
Cool - not quite as heavy as I was thinking   
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: fj1289 on October 02, 2020, 10:30:33 PM
Finished welding it up.   Most of today's welds were entirely mediocre - progress!!  This flux core mig is all about being able to see the puddle.  You can definitely tell where I couldn't pick out the puddle for crap.  

Also threw some paint on it.   Paint over mediocre welds is ok, paint over the ugly welds makes them FUGLY!   :blush:

Pics tomorrow in daylight
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: ribbert on October 03, 2020, 09:56:24 AM
That's a great job Chris, without trying to re invent the wheel you've come up with an excellent design.
You've allowed for the load throughout the entire 360 deg of rotation and up to the weight of a complete engine, all the while keeping it simple. It's great, it ticks all the boxes and I like it.

You do realise you spent your entire previous post apologising for shitty welds, well don't, you're in good company here, it's not a welding forum. I'm so good at shitty welds I reckon they deserve some sort of recognition in their own right.



Noel
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: fj1289 on October 03, 2020, 05:09:58 PM
Finished for now

Before remounting the case half I supported my full body weight on the ends of the mounts (dip bar style) with the mount "right side up"  so the supports were in tension vice compression (the weak way).  I was very happy with how sturdy it was.  

Also cut the single piece of all-thread - WAY too much time spinning nuts on and off to get the engine case mounted or unmounted.  Much easier and faster this way.  

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/171_03_10_20_3_50_01_0.jpeg)


(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/171_03_10_20_3_50_03_1.jpeg)


(http://fjowners.com/gallery/11/171_03_10_20_3_50_04_2.jpeg)
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: fj1289 on October 03, 2020, 06:57:25 PM
For anyone looking to duplicate this - I would use the same 1" square tube for the "arms" and "supports".  I just used the c-channel on those because I had it on hand already from another project. 

Hopefully in the next few days I'll get the 1314 cases out of the race bike frame again and give it a go on this engine stand adapter.   I prefer to pull the head and cylinder in the frame - along with the clutch, starter, and generator.  Makes getting it in and out of the frame a breeze and lighter to pick up too.   But, I'm thinking I'll go ahead and build up the full engine on the stand since timing the cams is a lot easier for me - better access for the dial gauge since I haven't found a good way to mount that in the frame yet ( always ends up at a bad angle and the pointer wants to bind up or slip off the bucket). 

May remove the entire adapter and the yoke? spindle? From the engine stand and bolt it to the engine.  Then just pick up the whole thing and slide it into place in the engine stand.  Probably sounds easier than it will be in reality.
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Pat Conlon on October 03, 2020, 08:39:59 PM
That's the beauty of using the upper engine mounts....it's easy to get the frame on when the engine is sitting on the ground. I like your idea of bolting the frame on, then with your engine hoist lifting everything up to slide the spindle into the yoke on the engine stand.
It might be awkward to get the spindle exactly horizontal to slide into the yoke, so if the frame and spindle are at a slight angle you can lift the stand to match the angle. (famous last words)

Thanks again Chris, good job
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Old Rider on October 04, 2020, 05:34:50 AM
Nice work ! i I guess this can be used on other vintage bike engines i have some garage door rails that looks like the C-channels you have used maybe i try to make a copy of yours if you haven't patented it yet
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: racerrad8 on October 04, 2020, 09:07:31 AM
Quote from: Brook on September 26, 2020, 01:27:51 PM
..... Randy, back in the day, when building a motor for the street (racing) or the roundy rounds. The mechanics in my area/group would not build a racing motor, on a motor stand. Because, of the off-set weight. They would say, that the torque  measurements would not be the same, at both ends of the motor (the motor would stretch, on a motor stand)
Do you agree??
Would that apply, to motorcycle motors, also??   

Brook, I have never heard such a theory. I struggle with that as the loads on the engine when running are much greater than the weight of the engine hanging on a engine stand. I do recall touring the Hendrick engine shop back in the late 90's and they were using engine stands. Maybe things have changed, thought provoking.

Chris, While the concern of the crankshaft weight should be up there, you also need to seriously consider the additions weight of the rods, pistons, cylinder block, cylinder head and camshafts also hanging out there. Be careful, I would hate see that race engine damaged trying that apparatus you have assembled. Leaving it with a safety support of the engine hoist just in case.

Now, how are you going to work on everything in the clutch area? Bearing retainer, oil pump, shift shaft, clutch basket and clutch? That cross bar appears to be right in the way.

Sorry guys, I am still struggling with why...? :scratch_one-s_head:

With the upper case upside down, the head studs provide a nice angel to ret the crankshaft. Then , that same angle helps when dropping on the lower case half. In fact, it allows you to keep the trans in place better than trying to hang it upside down. Once the lower case bolts are torqued, you roll the engine over onto the flat surface. That then allows the assembly of the rest of the engine on a nice sturdy base.

Chris, be careful, very very careful.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: fj1289 on October 04, 2020, 09:40:48 AM
Randy - warning well received.  This may not work out at all - will have to see about access to the bearing retainer, etc.  I figured the clutch stuff I'd do in the bike like I usually do.

For me, part of the reason why - I built my workbench with specific storage requirements in mind.  In reality, it's about 12-18" too tall for doing the engine work on.  Maybe that should be my next focus ...
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: racerrad8 on October 04, 2020, 11:10:23 AM
Quote from: fj1289 on October 04, 2020, 09:40:48 AM
For me, part of the reason why - I built my workbench with specific storage requirements in mind.  In reality, it's about 12-18" too tall for doing the engine work on.  Maybe that should be my next focus ...

Maybe its time for one of these, I used this one to finish up a top end repairs on the engine in the car.

I have four of them and use them for engine builds. It has the stainless top with an oil drain hole. It has plenty of storage below for when I break and engine down everything stays in one place. It has the face tool hanger at one end as well. Plus it rolls for easy storage out of the way.

Let me know if that might be a better option for you.

Randy - RPM
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: ribbert on October 04, 2020, 11:08:15 PM
Chris, while I like your design, albeit in need of the beefing up you mentioned, that is an entirely separate matter to the need for it and I agree with Randy....

Quote from: racerrad8 on October 04, 2020, 09:07:31 AM

Sorry guys, I am still struggling with why...? :scratch_one-s_head:

Randy - RPM

I have literally done hundreds of motor bike engines and I've always owned engine stands but never once have I wished I could mount a bike motor on one, particularly 4 cyl engines, their weight and shape keeps them stable on a flat surface.
Also, engine stands are generally not height adjustable and I reckon you'll find the working height a bit low.

What I do find essential are these, engine lift and leveller and a proper floor jack.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/8248626215_7d5ca90a5e_c.jpg)






Randy's set up is great but maybe overkill for home use. I use a small dedicated work bench with a solid timber top, additional bracing, tray at the back and I put locking wheels on it, works a treat. Everything in my workshop that can't be lifted easily is on wheels, even motors on the floor sit on piano trolleys.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/9372340779_670343d8f4_c.jpg)

Trivia, the engine on the right made 10 - 17 HP off the showroom floor when new, depending on the year/model

Noel



Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: Brook on October 11, 2020, 09:41:39 PM
... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXlFfyM7J1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXlFfyM7J1s)

   8:35
Title: Re: FJ engine mount frame to use a conventional engine stand, anyone seen one?
Post by: RPM - Robert on October 12, 2020, 10:02:40 AM
Quote from: Brook on October 11, 2020, 09:41:39 PM
... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXlFfyM7J1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXlFfyM7J1s)

  8:35

Those struts are because that is an engine run stand. It would be interesting to see an engine stand in a engine shop like Ferrari or Hendricks.

But looking at this video, Ferrari mounts their engines to a single side during assembly. Then it appears they go to a front mount.

That water jacket area would seem weaker than the bell housing flange to me especially on a single side mount.
https://youtu.be/eEzWtCvQgEM?t=44 (https://youtu.be/eEzWtCvQgEM?t=44)