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General Category => Dirt Bike / Dual Sport Stuff => Topic started by: Pat Conlon on December 16, 2020, 10:48:02 AM



Title: Electric motocross
Post by: Pat Conlon on December 16, 2020, 10:48:02 AM
Hey folks, I came across this Red Bull video made last year, showing an electric motocross bike...
Outside of Palm Desert, up in Anza on the Indian reservation, there is a motocross track where they have these bikes running in the 250 class. The last I checked, the electrics can’t hang with the 450’s (yet) but they are very popular in the smaller 250 class. They are able to hot swap the batteries between heats.

Has anyone else seen these bikes in action?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkBTvoDzQYY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkBTvoDzQYY)

Turn up the sound......wait, never mind..


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: red on December 16, 2020, 01:33:19 PM
Hey folks, I came across this Red Bull video made last year, showing an electric motocross bike... They are able to hot swap the batteries between heats.
Pat,

Speaking of the batteries, I would not expect large batteries to stand up to the beating of a motocross track session. 
Smaller cells, yeah, but probably needing lots of them.  I'd like to see what these bikes use as battery arrays.

After the production Lightning LS-218 ran off with the Pike's Peak race and the Land Speed record (218 mph), I'm a believer in electric bikes.
Jay Leno's Garage had one out on the highways, on a test drive, as seen on YouTube.  Very nice!  Costs ~US$40k though.
I can see having a fuel cell in one pannier and a fuel tank in the other pannier, as a range extender (hybrid) system, where charging stations are scarce.
.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: ZOA NOM on December 16, 2020, 02:43:12 PM
A full minute and a half and he plugged it back in. Hopefully the wind is blowing. LOL


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Millietant on December 16, 2020, 03:10:23 PM
I have to say, I'm passionate about Electric Motorbikes...........that's to say passionate about calling out the current (pun intended) manufacturers, such as Zero and Harley Davidson.....for their misleading marketing and their blatant bribing of journalists/presenters, or cow-towing to ridiculous Govt aims to promote Electric Motorcycles at all cost.

In certain markets and areas, electric bikes are brilliant - we have one in our family, and Oset trials bike that my youngest, my brother and my nephew ride. It is incredible fun and perfectly suited to the type of use it gets - always off-road, staying within 5 miles of "base" and being used in total for about 1.5-2.0 hours each session (before being put back in the van and being taken home to be re-charged).

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/6213_16_12_20_2_40_51.jpeg)

Other markets where they are perfect, are the urban commuter and short distance commuter markets, where riders only ever go relatively short distances with long enough stops between each journey leg to recharge.

For any other type of what we regard as "normal" use, they are absolutely useless, especially the Zero's and the Livewire.

I've posted a spec sheet from the Zero website below for one of their Road bikes, which has the slogan "The SR/F, equipped with Zero’s Cypher III operating system and Bosch’s Motorcycle Stability Control (MSC), is equal parts brawn and brains. Effortless power is paired with intuitive control, creating the new standard for premium performance—an adaptable motorcycle and powertrain combination that navigates diverse road terrain and conditions, effortlessly."

Imagine trying to use this bike on the recent Bermagui Shed Day ride - 400km in one day...don't make me laugh.....at "normal road riding speeds" that's a minimum of 2 mid-ride recharges - ie an absolute minimum of almost 3 hours sitting at the side of the road waiting for the bike to re-charge - and if you didn't opt for the extra expense of the fast charger or the "Premium" specification, that "sitting time" with a standard EVSE cord and power outlet goes up to 17 hours....for one day of riding - bearing in mind that the actual riding time for that journey would like be 4-5 hours. So, it would take almost 22 hours to cover the route of the latest shed day on a Zero....definitely sounds effortless to me, NOT !

That certainly is "the new standard for premium performance—an adaptable motorcycle and powertrain combination that navigates diverse road terrain and conditions, effortlessly"   :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

And all for the remarkably cheap price of somewhere north of $20,000 (US) even for the most basic bike with no fast charging.  Sorry guys, but these bikes are a joke for real world riding....and don't get me started on their "Effortless Adventure" DSR Black Forest edition bike.  :Facepalm:

Anyway, here are the specs from the website for the DSR/F road bike

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/6213_16_12_20_3_03_34_0.jpeg)
(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/6213_16_12_20_3_03_34_1.jpeg)


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Millietant on December 16, 2020, 03:12:45 PM
If our Oset is anything to go by, I can bet those electric MX bikes are an absolute HOOT to ride.... I would love to try one.

I tried a couple of the Oset bikes way back in 2012 at an off-road training centre and they were great fun then too - but they don't seem to have advanced very far in battery life/range and charging times since then.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: ZOA NOM on December 16, 2020, 03:49:49 PM
I had a run-in with a Zero on my commute home one day, and I didn't realize it was electric at first. It was so quick pulling away from the light, and seemed so smooth. It wasn't until I caught it on an onramp to a freeway that I figured it out. Went by him like a freight train at about 85, and he disappeared in the mirrors as I climbed through 4th and 5th gears. Nice little scooters to run down to the store on I suppose, but I just can't see wasting so much coal on charging them up all the time.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Millietant on December 17, 2020, 05:31:30 AM
Yeah, if he was on a freeway he likely wouldn’t go above 55moh so he could reach the next off ramp !!!


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Millietant on December 17, 2020, 05:34:52 AM
I had a run-in with a Zero on my commute home one day, and I didn't realize it was electric at first. It was so quick pulling away from the light, and seemed so smooth. It wasn't until I caught it on an onramp to a freeway that I figured it out. Went by him like a freight train at about 85, and he disappeared in the mirrors as I climbed through 4th and 5th gears. Nice little scooters to run down to the store on I suppose, but I just can't see wasting so much coal on charging them up all the time.

You shouldn’t like in a third world country Rick, where they still burn coal to generate electricity.

Modern, evolved countries, use much cleaner fuels (like nuclear)  :rofl2:


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Waiex191 on December 17, 2020, 09:07:29 AM
There is a guy in our Sonex forums who built an electric Xenos motorglider using a Zero motorcycle to donate its motor and batteries. He has a bunch of videos and has been flying for a while now.  Here is an early taxi test.
https://youtu.be/eAdoFVu4bdo

An electric motorglider is actually a pretty good implementation of electric power I think. Plenty of power to self-launch and plenty left over for a recovery.

Gabe was somebody at Zero before he went to do other things.

Am I the only one here who misses two strokes?


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Millietant on December 17, 2020, 09:20:37 AM
Definitely not Bryan - a Kawasaki H2, KH 250 B2, or KH 400 are on my dream list, together with a Suzuki GT 750 but I'd need 2, one to keep stock and one to modify just like this one

(http://fjowners.com/gallery/12/6213_17_12_20_9_18_52.jpeg)


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Pat Conlon on December 17, 2020, 10:20:06 AM
Hey folks, I came across this Red Bull video made last year, showing an electric motocross bike... They are able to hot swap the batteries between heats.
Speaking of the batteries, I would not expect large batteries to stand up to the beating of a motocross track session. 
Smaller cells, yeah, but probably needing lots of them.  I'd like to see what these bikes use as battery arrays..

Hey Red, the single afternoon I spent at the track, I noticed the MX heats were short races...maybe 5 minutes? The main event was longer, I think around 10 or 15 minutes.
I had forgotten all about those electric MX’ers until I saw the Red Bull video.
I wondered if other folks knew more about them.

Dean, that trials bike looks cool and I agree with you about the EV industry misrepresenting the real world range of EV bikes ridden at real world speeds. Motorcycles sell to a limited market, electric motorcycles to even a smaller slice of the pie.

However....electric mountain bikes are selling well in my region. They are fun.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: red on December 17, 2020, 10:46:36 AM
Yeah, if he was on a freeway he likely wouldn’t go above 55moh so he could reach the next off ramp !!!

Yeah, and just ignore those DHL and Tesla tractor-trailers, too.  All those truck fleet pre-orders don't mean anything!
We need those big old Cadillacs with Freon air conditioning and ten MPG engines!

 . . . I live in the past.  It's cheaper there.
    :lol:   

Actually, Santa, I really wanna Lightning LS-218 fer Christmas!  I promise to wear ATGATT, 'n' I won't shoot my eye out with it.   8)   
.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Pat Conlon on December 17, 2020, 11:35:28 AM
Yeah, and just ignore those DHL and Tesla tractor-trailers, too.  All those truck fleet pre-orders don't mean anything!
The ports of LA and Long Beach, Calif. have struggled with air pollution from diesel trucks with 100’s of these trucks idling in queue awaiting offloaded containers, so they are at the forefront of the nation’s clean air truck program. Natural gas is a big player in these mandated clean air trucks, but I see Tesla’s short haul trucks fitting into that program just fine. These short haulers just need to go from LA/LB ports inland to Fontana, offload, then return back to the ports. As battery energy densities improve, the range of the electric trucks will become competitive with long haul diesels.
Here is a 2018 article on the clean air truck program. The number of clean air trucks serving these ports today is greater than the 700 called out in the article.
https://www.trucks.com/2018/09/18/ports-la-long-beach-clean-truck-testing/ (https://www.trucks.com/2018/09/18/ports-la-long-beach-clean-truck-testing/)


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Motofun on December 17, 2020, 01:42:23 PM
Seems to me a long haul electric truck/tractor would need to be able to go 700  to 800 miles on a charge all while pulling 80,000 lbs through the mountains.  Diesels do this all the time.  The drivers being limited to 10 hours per day push the rigs pretty hard.  I predict the greenies will push for even more regulations to limit trucks in order to make electrics competitive....


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Pat Conlon on December 17, 2020, 02:24:16 PM
You are correct Jack, for long hauls, the electrics are not there yet. That’s why I stayed with the short haul scenarios. The current Max range of the Tesla tractor is 300-500 miles. Load capacity for Tesla’s are ok at 80k lbs. Operating cost per mile is better than diesel.
Since 2018 Tesla has been running their fully loaded trucks from their battery factory in Reno, NV. on the I-80 up over Donner Pass (Tahoe) down to the Tesla car factory in Fremont, CA. (Bay area) It’s a 7 hour 260 one way trip and they regenerate enough energy on the down hill run (Tahoe to Sacramento) that they don’t need recharging in Fremont. They can make the round trip on one charge. In fairness, they do the return leg to Reno with a reduced load.
I think economics, low cost per mile and low maintenance costs will be the selling point for these trucks, along with having to comply with super restrictive air pollution regs where trucking is concentrated.

https://www.tesla.com/semi (https://www.tesla.com/semi)

We shall see....


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Waiex191 on December 17, 2020, 03:19:56 PM
I think this electric motorcycle stuff is a fad. The next revolution in motorcycles is being developed in England.
https://youtu.be/6hUMXWNcwx4


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: ZOA NOM on December 17, 2020, 03:24:35 PM
I think this electric motorcycle stuff is a fad. The next revolution in motorcycles is being developed in England.
https://youtu.be/6hUMXWNcwx4

Be still my heart... did you see that SHOP?!


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: red on December 17, 2020, 07:23:45 PM
You are correct Jack, for long hauls, the electrics are not there yet. That’s why I stayed with the short haul scenarios. The current Max range of the Tesla tractor is 300-500 miles. Load capacity for Tesla’s are ok at 80k lbs. Operating cost per mile is better than diesel.  We shall see....
Pat,

Maybe not the independent truckers, but the big fleets could have sub-stations with tractors charged and ready to go.  Driver pulls in with a low charge , unhooks the trailer and puts the tractor on charge.  Then the driver picks up a fully-charged tractor, hooks up to the trailer, and down the road it goes.  Buy the driver some coffee, while at the charge station.  Those fleets always have empty tractors parked, so this type of operation would not be any big deal, for them.
.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Millietant on December 17, 2020, 08:10:55 PM
You are correct Jack, for long hauls, the electrics are not there yet. That’s why I stayed with the short haul scenarios. The current Max range of the Tesla tractor is 300-500 miles. Load capacity for Tesla’s are ok at 80k lbs. Operating cost per mile is better than diesel.
Since 2018 Tesla has been running their fully loaded trucks from their battery factory in Reno, NV. on the I-80 up over Donner Pass (Tahoe) down to the Tesla car factory in Fremont, CA. (Bay area) It’s a 7 hour 260 one way trip and they regenerate enough energy on the down hill run (Tahoe to Sacramento) that they don’t need recharging in Fremont. They can make the round trip on one charge. In fairness, they do the return leg to Reno with a reduced load.
I think economics, low cost per mile and low maintenance costs will be the selling point for these trucks, along with having to comply with super restrictive air pollution regs where trucking is concentrated.

https://www.tesla.com/semi (https://www.tesla.com/semi)

We shall see....

Pat/Red and everyone else....don't get me wrong, I don't think electric vehicles are bad.....its Battery Electric Vehicles that I believe are a disastrous mistake............the future of motor transportation cannot lie in robbing the earth of rare minerals in an even more devastating way than the damage we're doing mining fossil fuels - if the growth of BEV's reaches the levels that our Govt's want, in the timescales they want, we will run out of land deposits of cabalt and we're going to be mass dredging immense areas of the ocean bed, around the globe, destroying sea life and sea life habitat on a scale will devastate the oceans.

Elon Musk has already said we can't continue with current battery technology because of the shortage of cobalt he is predicting - and no-one seems even remotely close to having another product to take the place of cobalt - and yet he's still pushing ahead making massive amounts of batteries using cobalt as one of their key elements, at his new super factories !!!!

Natural gas powered vehicles aren't the "clean" answer either. In Europe, 20 years ago, LPG an CNG cars were being promoted and subsidised heavily but the Govt's as a clean alternative to petrol/gasoline and diesel - I ran a LPG powered Volvo V70 for 120k miles between 2002 and 2005 and I loved it (much cheaper to run than a diesel due to low fuel price), but when the time came to get another one, I found out that because the "clean" credentials of natural gas power had been de-bunked, all subsidies had been removed across Europe and manufacturers were no longer offering gas powered options - they were all focussing on the "cleaner" diesel engines that were being produced !!!!! (go figure).

There is another potential solution (but not without its own problems) - we already have electric buses and long haul trucks running here, but they use hydrogen fuel cells for their power generation. It's not their range that is important to their operators, but their quick refill times - only about twice as long as a full diesel fill up !!!. They're "green", efficient and quiet  :good2:

Around 12-15 years ago, at work, we ran some hydrogen fuel cell 60 tonne capacity dump trucks on a 6 month trial in a quarry . Those things were absolutely awesome. The power and torque available immediately made them amazingly rapid and they were incredibly quiet. If they hadn't been so expensive (and if installing the hydrogen tankage suitable for our fleet hadn't been so expensive), we would have loved to have swapped every diesel dump truck in every quarry (we ran about 200 quarries in the UK) for them.

It just seems that someone is going way out of their way to "big up" BEV's......and the cynic in me believes that's mainly because too many Govt's (particularly the US Govt) have supported/funded Tesla to such an extent that allowing it to fail would be catastrophically embarrassing for them.

Battery electric motorcycles have the place in the bike world.....but its a very limited and specialised place - and its not on the open roads.



Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Millietant on December 17, 2020, 08:30:59 PM
You are correct Jack, for long hauls, the electrics are not there yet. That’s why I stayed with the short haul scenarios. The current Max range of the Tesla tractor is 300-500 miles. Load capacity for Tesla’s are ok at 80k lbs. Operating cost per mile is better than diesel.  We shall see....
Pat,

Maybe not the independent truckers, but the big fleets could have sub-stations with tractors charged and ready to go.  Driver pulls in with a low charge , unhooks the trailer and puts the tractor on charge.  Then the driver picks up a fully-charged tractor, hooks up to the trailer, and down the road it goes.  Buy the driver some coffee, while at the charge station.  Those fleets always have empty tractors parked, so this type of operation would not be any big deal, for them.
.

With the driving time regulations for truck drivers here, Battery Electric trucks could actually work !!! Most of the grocery and foodstuff delivery done in the UK, is on 40 tonne capacity tractor/trailer units (semi's) which generally don't cover any more than 250-300 km's in a full driving shift - with regular, enforced breaks for drivers that would allow decent recharging times.

I don't believe you have the enforced driving hours limits that we operate in Europe and neither are your trucks electronically limited to 56mph - because of this, the factors around recharging and truck range here are totally different to those in the USA - so the need to have double the amount of tractor units than you would otherwise need, is eliminated.

Again, through my work, we tried to run/manage an Infrastructure Services contract (highway maintenance/inspection etc) using BEV Renault Kangoo vans, instead of diesel engined versions. Our client asked us to do this and said they were willing pay a premium for it. What they didn't factor into their thoughts was that the vans wouldn't last a full shift without needing to recharge, so our staff had to stop what they were doing when they hit their range warnings and head back to their base to plug in the van to recharge and take another van out. We ran a 24 hour service, so the operational cost of the lost working time due to travelling backwards and forwards was huge and it also meant we needed additional manpower - on top of that, the range and recharging limitations meant we actually needed 3 times the number of BEV vans than we did diesel vans (which would sometimes run 5 or 6 shifts on a single tank of diesel). Within 6 month's our client cried "enough", they simply couldn't afford the long term cost of us complying with their wishes and our entire fleet of leased BEV's was replaced with (1/3 of the number of) diesel powered ones.

The problem is too many people and businesses are jumping on the Electric bandwagon on the basis of flawed logic, unobtainable savings and BS marketing. But if the truth were common knowledge, no-one would be buying electric vehicles and the oil companies would have an even tighter grip on our money and our economies.

I really do hope someone (much cleverer than me) finds a breakthough in powering electric vehicles soon.......... :good2:


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: ZOA NOM on December 17, 2020, 08:53:29 PM
This thread reminds me of something that happened last weekend in Abu-Dhabi at the final Formula 1 weekend of 2020. Fernando Alonso drought out his 15 year-old F1 car all three days for "nostalgia" laps for all those in attendance. The reaction is reverberating through the F1 world at what F1 has lost since the days of the V10 sounds. Calls for F1 to do something about its lost wow factor are increasing...

https://youtu.be/Ltx15RVvF5A


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: red on December 17, 2020, 09:41:14 PM
The problem is too many people and businesses are jumping on the Electric bandwagon on the basis of flawed logic, unobtainable savings and BS marketing. But if the truth were common knowledge, no-one would be buying electric vehicles and the oil companies would have an even tighter grip on our money and our economies.
I really do hope someone (much cleverer than me) finds a breakthough in powering electric vehicles soon.
Milletant,

I agree.  Using rare materials for batteries is a dead end road.  There are many materials that can work in batteries, but so far, we have only the exotic or nasty stuff.  Saw one outfit on the 'Net making batteries with seawater inside.  Jules Verne would have been delighted; his imaginary electric Nautilus used seawater as a power source.  There are plenty of people who see the problems posed by today's batteries, and there are a lot of new ideas out there.  Tunnel vision is a bad plan there, and some do know that.  Hang tough.
.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Millietant on December 18, 2020, 08:27:14 AM
And now, here we go.....the UK Government are finally admitting what some of us have been saying for years now - the switch to electric vehicles is going to create an an astronomical hole in tax revenue...........which means that the only way electric cars can remain cheap to run (bearing in mind that over 80% of the cost of petrol/diesel here is in taxation), is if the rest of the non-electric-vehicle-driving population pay a substantial increase in taxes on other things.

So effectively, those of us who choose not to drive (or not to own) electric vehicles, will be paying for those who do.....even if we choose not to own/drive any sort of vehicle.

Apparently, according the BBC, this is breaking news !!!!!..................the more enlightened amongst us have been saying this for years, but we've just been shouted down as luddites until now  :sarcastic:


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: ZOA NOM on December 18, 2020, 11:09:28 AM
Can somebody explain exactly why fossil fuel is a finite resource? Did the process of dying, decaying, and tectonic pressure stop happening? I submit that you can't burn it faster than it's created. Discuss.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Pat Conlon on December 18, 2020, 01:56:16 PM
Can somebody explain exactly why fossil fuel is a finite resource?

I submit that you can't burn it faster than it's created. Discuss.



You would just argue with me, so why not listen to the experts in the oil and financial industries?
Google the term: Estimated Ultimate Recovery (EUR) for oil reserves.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: ZOA NOM on December 18, 2020, 03:47:42 PM
That's an interesting formula for calculating expected reserves from a known site.

Check out what may lie beyond...

https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/how-much-oil-left-earth-2016-11-18 (https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/how-much-oil-left-earth-2016-11-18)

(https://i.imgur.com/g4OKFvf.jpg)


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Pat Conlon on December 18, 2020, 04:50:12 PM
Interesting to point out the difference between Technically Recoverable oil and Economically Recoverable.oil
That is a moving target.
It’s safe to say that with the maturation of the various renewable energy sources, the Economically Recoverable part of oil production equation will be impacted.... just as natural gas prices impacted coal production. e.g. Why own a fossil fueled car when an electric car is cheaper to operate?
We will always need oil, just not as much.

Regardless...I believe Rick answered his question.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: giantkiller on December 18, 2020, 05:41:29 PM
I'm all for electrical vehicle power. It's awesome.  I  remember many years ago. A fellow took an old mail jeep. He wanted the  least aerodynamic vehicle he could find. To prove the  power of electric motors. Was going to make a 10 second vehicle.  Last I saw he was having a hard time finding strong enough drive shafts  kept twisting them off. My old man when I was a kid  said he wished he could put an electric motor in his car. (Had many muscle cars . 10 that I  can remember) " Most powerful motors around! "
I love my internal combustion bikes. Can  never get enough power. But I can't wait until I can afford the power available from electric vehicles. And the chance to play around with altering it for insane power.

That said. I will hope I get to be the gray haired uncle with the gleaming Red Barchetta. (Fj1350r)


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: JPaganel on December 18, 2020, 05:47:35 PM
And now, here we go.....the UK Government are finally admitting what some of us have been saying for years now - the switch to electric vehicles is going to create an an astronomical hole in tax revenue...
They will make it up with registration fees and possibly mileage taxes easy enough.  That means they won't stay cheap, though.


 
I submit that you can't burn it faster than it's created.

And you say this based on... what, exactly?  A cup of oil will burn in a few minutes.  A heap of plant matter will take weeks and moths to simply rot, and a lot longer than that to become oil.

Even when the process is done artificially, such as thermal depolymerization, it takes a fair amount of time.

Plus, it's not about burning every last drop. It's about using up what is easily and cheaply accessible.  If it isn't cheap, it might as well not be there.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: T Legg on December 18, 2020, 07:52:19 PM
Nobody knows for sure how all oil is formed. The process of abiotic production has been demonstrated to be possible by experiment. There are several oil fields that after being depleted have refilled. Some attribute it to oil from high pressure deposits migrating into the depleted fields but others,the Russians for one believe it comes from deep within the Earth and as it rises it becomes a food source for micro organisms along the way giving it it's biological signature. Using this theory the Russians have drilled more than three hundred wells at depths greater than eight miles. It is certainly a fact that all organic matterial present now developed on an Earth that was once sterile. I for one plan on burning as much gas with my motorcycle as I can. I also love my bultaco 370 Frontera two stroke.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Motofun on December 19, 2020, 06:33:30 AM
How many times have the experts predicted the end of oil?   :Facepalm:


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: RPM - Robert on December 19, 2020, 09:20:24 AM
How many times have the experts predicted the end of oil?   :Facepalm:


11...?  :pardon:


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Pat Conlon on December 19, 2020, 11:32:40 AM
How many times have the experts predicted the end of oil? 
About as many who predicted the end of coal..


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: RPM - Robert on December 19, 2020, 11:42:11 AM
How many times have the experts predicted the end of oil? 
About as many who predicted the end of coal..

3...? :scratch_one-s_head:


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Millietant on December 19, 2020, 12:08:29 PM
Coal has ended here - the cooling towers of the last coal fired power station were demolished earlier this year and the use of coal ceased for generation a couple of years back.

Our coal mining industry has basically been demolished over the last 20 years. Back in 2010 I was in negotiations with the country's biggest mining company to take the reigns as the head of their Opencast mining operations. Part of the "package" we were discussing was a golden handshake,bonus and part-salary, all paid in shares and they wee telling me that they expected to make a £10m for the year, which was ending on the day of our discussions. 2 days later, when that profit suddenly turned into a £1m loss, that was the day I turned my back and walked away............... That was the first time I'd gone against my granny's advice to "never look a gift horse in the mouth".....and I'm very glad I did. Coal has been dead in the water here  for at least 10years now and it's not coming back.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Waiex191 on December 19, 2020, 01:04:35 PM
If we ever run out of oil just come over to my place. My $200 Buick leaks it all over but it never goes down on the dipstick.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: FJmonkey on December 19, 2020, 08:27:30 PM
If we ever run out of oil just come over to my place. My $200 Buick leaks it all over but it never goes down on the dipstick.

Must have a 50 gallon sump....


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: ZOA NOM on December 20, 2020, 08:44:17 PM

 
I submit that you can't burn it faster than it's created.

And you say this based on... what, exactly?  A cup of oil will burn in a few minutes.  A heap of plant matter will take weeks and moths to simply rot, and a lot longer than that to become oil.

Even when the process is done artificially, such as thermal depolymerization, it takes a fair amount of time.

Plus, it's not about burning every last drop. It's about using up what is easily and cheaply accessible.  If it isn't cheap, it might as well not be there.


I say this based on the debate... share your facts that disprove my theory.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: T Legg on December 20, 2020, 10:33:46 PM
This thread reminds me of something that happened last weekend in Abu-Dhabi at the final Formula 1 weekend of 2020. Fernando Alonso drought out his 15 year-old F1 car all three days for "nostalgia" laps for all those in attendance. The reaction is reverberating through the F1 world at what F1 has lost since the days of the V10 sounds. Calls for F1 to do something about its lost wow factor are increasing...




https://youtu.be/Ltx15RVvF5A
https://youtu.be/lal5UgVyiiU


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: JPaganel on December 21, 2020, 12:50:09 AM

I say this based on the debate... share your facts that disprove my theory.

You don't have a theory. You have a random statement you made with nothing to support it.  "based on the debate" is so vague, it really doesn't mean much.

Your lack of any basis notwithstanding, I did share facts. They are right there in my post. You don't seem to be trying to disprove them, though.


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: Millietant on December 21, 2020, 03:19:21 AM

I say this based on the debate... share your facts that disprove my theory.

You don't have a theory. You have a random statement you made with nothing to support it.  "based on the debate" is so vague, it really doesn't mean much.

Your lack of any basis notwithstanding, I did share facts. They are right there in my post. You don't seem to be trying to disprove them, though.

And that's how the fight started...........................        :sarcastic:


Title: Re: Electric motocross
Post by: ZOA NOM on December 21, 2020, 08:28:10 AM

I say this based on the debate... share your facts that disprove my theory.

You don't have a theory. You have a random statement you made with nothing to support it.  "based on the debate" is so vague, it really doesn't mean much.

Your lack of any basis notwithstanding, I did share facts. They are right there in my post. You don't seem to be trying to disprove them, though.

And that's how the fight started...........................        :sarcastic:

 :biggrin:

It's funny, the attack never varies. He's consistent, I'll give him that.

Anyway, the article I linked above seems to do everything BUT refute or disprove my "random statement with nothing to support it".  I believe the comment I made was an invitation to discuss the issue, especially as it relates to all the money and effort our society seems to be investing in the electric vehicle field. I realize that a controversial statement about the unlimited availability of oil might not ever be uttered by the folks who need it to seem finite, but that doesn't mean it's true.

I'm anxiously awaiting any facts to suggest that the earth's processes responsible for oil creation are indeed outpaced by our usage.