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General Category => Maintenance => Topic started by: Loukiii on September 13, 2021, 08:52:49 AM



Title: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: Loukiii on September 13, 2021, 08:52:49 AM
So my 86 FJ1200 is burning a little oil. I talked to my mechanic and he said that eventually the cylinders start wearing and they need to be bored out and the rings replaced etc. which he said could cost more than the bike. Thing is, I DONT WANT ANOTHER BIKE. lol I waited 35 years to get this one.
So aside from just ride it and keep filling it up with oil,(it goes through several tanks of gas before I even notice the level go down and I check it before and after every ride) what are my options?



Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: FJmonkey on September 13, 2021, 10:51:35 AM
Ride it and keep checking the oil like you do now, Kookaloo.


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: jono on September 13, 2021, 11:59:29 AM
I bought this bike as a donor for my 3xw as lot of parts are the same  its done just over 100000 km and I just started stripping out the motor. The clutch plates still measure in spec thickness wise the lugs are slightly hammered but i think that's human error
the valve seats and valves look pretty good there is slight pitting on the  part of the stem exposed in the ports on some of them maybe because the oil slowly washed away with moisture from condensation as it lay on its side in the PO's backyard for 15 years but the guides still feel good and the bores are good with absolutely no lip, so Yamaha obviously us very good metal in there engines and if yours is using oil you might find its just in need of new rings and a hone and the a proper running in process of the new rings, which I believe is very important to the way a motor lasts, my 3xw has done somewhere between 100000 and 200000 km and doesn't use any oil

jono


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: f4fwildcat on September 13, 2021, 03:01:33 PM
I changed from 10w40 to 20w50 and it made a significant difference. My startups normally had a lot of smoke but once changing to 20w50 that went away significantly. Also there was a lot less oil mist on the inside of the airbox and I didn't need to top up the oil halfway through oil change interval. The best thing is it quietened the engine chain slap significantly and this is on an FJ with I think 64,000 miles on it. Otherwise your only options really are too pull the engine and try a new set of rings and a hone as suggested.


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: Loukiii on September 14, 2021, 04:56:48 AM
I was looking into the honing and new piston rings and a mechanic told me that I would probably not be able to find new piston rings and I wouldnt be able to order them even until after the cylinders were machined because they wouldn't know what size I would need. Is that the truth or was he mistaken?


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: Waiex191 on September 14, 2021, 06:46:59 AM
I was looking into the honing and new piston rings and a mechanic told me that I would probably not be able to find new piston rings and I wouldnt be able to order them even until after the cylinders were machined because they wouldn't know what size I would need. Is that the truth or was he mistaken?

That sounds wrong.  They should bore to fit the new piston, if needed.  I'd find another mechanic, or send it to RPM.


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 14, 2021, 08:06:51 AM
RPM has .020 oversize rings for just this purpose.
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3A4PU-11605-01 (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3A4PU-11605-01)

Your mechanic is correct. You won’t  know if a simple cylinder hone/ring job or a more expensive cylinder bore is necessary until measurements are done.


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: Waiex191 on September 14, 2021, 10:58:03 AM
Your mechanic is correct. You won’t  know if a simple cylinder hone/ring job or a more expensive cylinder bore is necessary until measurements are done.
If you read what Lou wrote, it says they would machine the cylinders first (not measure) and then look for rings.

Dumb question - every engine I've had bored to oversize required new pistons.  Can you put in a .020 oversize ring in a standard piston?  Wouldn't you want to keep the piston clearance the same as you bored it out?


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 14, 2021, 01:20:29 PM
Oh, ok Bryan, I see what you’re saying….no one would bore before taking measurements….would they?
Maybe the measurements are fine and they don’t need the new bore?
If they do need a new bore, what size for the new bore?

Unless you’re a fan of piston slap, the .020 rings must match new .020 pistons and the new bore.

The $$$ question:
Can Loukiii get away with a simple cylinder wall hone/ring job (std.size) or does he need a cylinder bore and all new pistons and rings?
FYI, yes, standard size Yamaha piston rings are available:  
https://andrewsmotorsports.mybigcommerce.com/engine-product-yamaha-fj-fj1200-std-yamaha-piston-rings-set-of-4-4pu-11603-00-00-4pu116030000/

Should you use them?
Don’t know….It all Depends on the TDC and BDC cylinder diameter measurements.

I see no listings at RPM for new oversize pistons but Curt Andrews has them in different sizes:
https://andrewsmotorsports.mybigcommerce.com/wiseco-piston-kit-yamaha-fj-complete-kit-k1195-motorcycle-series-11476m77241/

Unless the odometer rolled over (very possible) 43k miles is kinda low mileage for an FJ to burn oil, just maybe, new standard rings and a hone is all that’s needed?

Question for Loukiii…are you sure it’s the rings and not valve seals?
Does the bike smoke on start up?
 Sometimes valve seals dry out and harden, thus leak, only to get refreshed to a 2nd life once the bike is ridden.

Monkey Mark’s advice, ride her, get some miles on her and see if the condition improves.

Find out more about your condition
Disconnect and cap off your vacuum advance, pop in some fresh plugs, go for a ride, then read your plugs.
Find out which cylinder(s) are burning oil.
Do a warm WFO compression test, find out which cylinders are low, then squirt some oil in those cylinders, retake the test and see if the compression numbers improve…if they do, that’s a good indication that it’s your rings.

Like I said, 43k is low for burning oil…..perhaps it’s a leaky valve seal, or two?

See what your compression test shows.


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: krusty on September 14, 2021, 05:22:51 PM
So my 86 FJ1200 is burning a little oil. I talked to my mechanic and he said that eventually the cylinders start wearing and they need to be bored out and the rings replaced etc. which he said could cost more than the bike. Thing is, I DONT WANT ANOTHER BIKE. lol I waited 35 years to get this one.
So aside from just ride it and keep filling it up with oil,(it goes through several tanks of gas before I even notice the level go down and I check it before and after every ride) what are my options?


Have you done a compression test? If not do one and go from there. I'm surprised no one has mentioned this unless I missed it.
BTW does the oil level light come on when oil is low. How many miles from topping up down to low level warning?
Are you sure it's only done 43K and not been around the clock once or twice? 43k would be just about run in by then.


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: Loukiii on September 14, 2021, 05:26:13 PM
Question for Loukiii…are you sure it’s the rings and not valve seals? No idea. Just going by what the mechanic told me.
Does the bike smoke on start up?
I have never noticed any smoke when the bike starts or when it is running.  The first thing I did when I bought the bike was take it to a mechanic and had the oil changed and had him check it over. He told me my carbs were out of synch and that is why it backfires sometimes on decelleration unless I engage the clutch. But I could ride it with no issues until I decide to get the carbs synched. However it seems the bike is not backfiring as much as it was lol After riding the bike a couple times after that I noticed my oil light came on while I was making a turn and went out when I straightened up again.  When I got him I checked the oii and it was a little low so I topped it up about halfway up the window. I called the mechanic and that is when he said "if it is burning oil then this is what you might need to do etc."

The oil light came on again one other time and I turned around and went home but the light went out and when I checked the oil it looked fine.  But perhaps I am just paranoid lol I dont like the idea of being stranded or blowing up an engine


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: Loukiii on September 14, 2021, 05:28:26 PM
So my 86 FJ1200 is burning a little oil. I talked to my mechanic and he said that eventually the cylinders start wearing and they need to be bored out and the rings replaced etc. which he said could cost more than the bike. Thing is, I DONT WANT ANOTHER BIKE. lol I waited 35 years to get this one.
So aside from just ride it and keep filling it up with oil,(it goes through several tanks of gas before I even notice the level go down and I check it before and after every ride) what are my options?


Have you done a compression test? If not do one and go from there. I'm surprised no one has mentioned this unless I missed it.
BTW does the oil level light come on when oil is low. How many miles from topping up down to low level warning?
Are you sure it's only done 43K and not been around the clock once or twice? 43k would be just about run in by then.



I am monitoring that closely now waiting for it to get low again. I didnt really pay attention the first time.



Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 14, 2021, 07:25:52 PM
The FJ’s oil level sensor in the crankcase can be fussy. We call the red oil light the kookaloo light. It tends to come on under heavy acceleration, hence, the kookaloo zone.

Unless my oil level is at the top line in the window, the oil light will blink. This blinking red light freaked me out at first until I realized what it was….oil level, not oil pressure.
Check it before each ride and you’re golden. You’re down there anyway checking your tire pressures.


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: FJmonkey on September 14, 2021, 07:28:25 PM
While you are down there, check the lower fame bolts as well.


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: ribbert on September 14, 2021, 08:55:36 PM
All this talk of pistons, rings, rebore, in what order and so on is jumping the gun a bit, what your mechanic told you (about wear and rings etc) was theoretical, not the result of tests to your specific bike.

Even if it was third time round the clock, it would still be unusual for an FJ to be burning oil because of worn rings, cylinders etc. I know of one personally with 270km that doesn't use excessive oil and there are many other bikes here with these sort of mileages and more, way more.

As Krusty mentioned, over what sort of mileage have you observed this, that is, is it an established pattern or the finding of one or two observations?

The sight glass is at the outermost part of the crankcase and as such is very susceptible to being level, a couple of degrees off dead vertical will throw the reading way off.

An engine burning enough oil to cause noticeable consumption will normally show visible smoking from the exhaust.

Even if the oil level is within the limits (minimum being the bottom of the glass) there are circumstances that make the low level light come on, such as taking off up hill and rapid acceleration in low gears, more so when the oil is really hot and the lower it gets, the easier it comes on (because it's a level light).

So, first thing, establish the consumption over a reasonable distance, say 1000 miles, to rule out things like measuring anomalies. If you are going to check oil level on the centre stand, do it in the same place. Personally, I kneel next to the RHS of the bike and bring it up vertical off the side stand, this way I can feel the exact balance point and it eliminates uneven ground throwing off the reading, also, I don't have a centre stand :biggrin:, but even when I did, I still checked it this way.
If checking the oil cold after being on the side stand, have the bike vertical for a minute or so before checking as cold oil is slower to react.


According to my mechanic.

Noel


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: aviationfred on September 15, 2021, 12:44:09 AM
Noel beat me to the statement. :drinks: How many miles are ridden between the oil being at the upper line and then at the lower line??

In my opinion..... the mileage between the upper line and lower line is the determining factor. If that number is less than 1000 miles.... I would say rings and over size pistons may be needed.

I had this exact situation a few years ago. I did some research and figured out, that ordering a complete drop in Cylinder/Piston kit and doing the install myself was much cheaper than having a shop bore/re-sleeve the cylinders and purchasing oversized pistons.

Here is exactly what I am talking about. A drop in kit that requires ZERO machine work. Should cure all of your oil consumption issues. Once the rings are seated..... expect oil consumption to be in the neighborhood of 1 quart per 3000 miles.

https://andrewsmotorsports.mybigcommerce.com/cylinder-kit-yamaha-fj1100-block-1250cc-includes-wiseco-piston-kit-1tx-11310-00-00-ck1250/


Fred


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: ribbert on September 15, 2021, 02:24:10 AM

A drop in kit that requires ZERO machine work.
https://andrewsmotorsports.mybigcommerce.com/cylinder-kit-yamaha-fj1100-block-1250cc-includes-wiseco-piston-kit-1tx-11310-00-00-ck1250/

Fred


That's great value Fred, right down to the ring gaps set. Even allowing for the exchange rate, I know I couldn't get anywhere near that, it cost me way more than that 10 years ago. Presumably that's on an exchange basis with the block.

Noel


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: aviationfred on September 15, 2021, 02:30:23 AM

A drop in kit that requires ZERO machine work.
https://andrewsmotorsports.mybigcommerce.com/cylinder-kit-yamaha-fj1100-block-1250cc-includes-wiseco-piston-kit-1tx-11310-00-00-ck1250/

Fred


That's great value Fred, right down to the ring gaps set. Even allowing for the exchange rate, I know I couldn't get anywhere near that, it cost me way more than that 10 years ago. Presumably that's on an exchange basis with the block.

Noel

No core charge involved or exchange required. This is the company that I got my 1297cc kit from, 5 years ago. $1599.00usd.  


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: JMR on September 15, 2021, 07:40:01 AM
So my 86 FJ1200 is burning a little oil. I talked to my mechanic and he said that eventually the cylinders start wearing and they need to be bored out and the rings replaced etc. which he said could cost more than the bike. Thing is, I DONT WANT ANOTHER BIKE. lol I waited 35 years to get this one.
So aside from just ride it and keep filling it up with oil,(it goes through several tanks of gas before I even notice the level go down and I check it before and after every ride) what are my options?


Have you done a compression test? If not do one and go from there. I'm surprised no one has mentioned this unless I missed it.
BTW does the oil level light come on when oil is low. How many miles from topping up down to low level warning?
Are you sure it's only done 43K and not been around the clock once or twice? 43k would be just about run in by then.



I am monitoring that closely now waiting for it to get low again. I didnt really pay attention the first time.

Personally I'd do a leak down first, check the reading and listen to how much air is getting into the crankcase


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: RPM - Robert on September 15, 2021, 10:18:42 AM


I see no listings at RPM for new oversize pistons




We can get all the kits from 1197-1380 just like we built for you, Pat.

We also offer a drop in Yamaha 1250 kit with custom barrels so you do not have to fly cut the case on your 1100 or 1200. These will drop right in. Rings are gapped and ready to go.

These are Yamaha XJR 1300 pistons and rings. Not the skirted Wisecos' you were having oil consumption problems with.

http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=1250Bloc (http://www.rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=1250Bloc) $1499.99 before a refundable $200 core charge.



Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 15, 2021, 03:31:43 PM
Thanks Robert, so you have the .020 over pistons to go with these rings?
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3A4PU-11605-01 (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3A4PU-11605-01)


….for those who just want .020 pistons and rings, without having to buy a new sleeved block.


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: Old Rider on September 15, 2021, 03:47:49 PM
Another option: if after measuring the bores and they are out of round and taper or have deep scratches is to buy cheap LA sleeves  and install them
your self .Then get them bored to fit your old pistons if they are in in spec.It is not difficult you can read about it in the splitting the cases tread.
I think i payed only 100 dollar for the sleeves and about 600 dollar to get the sleeves bored honed and milled the cylinder top surface.


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: RPM - Robert on September 15, 2021, 03:55:06 PM
Thanks Robert, so you have the .020 over pistons to go with these rings?
[url]http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3A4PU-11605-01[/url] ([url]http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Engine%3A4PU-11605-01[/url])


….for those who just want .020 pistons and rings, without having to buy a new sleeved block.


No, those are .020 Yamaha rings. The Yamaha pistons have been discontinued. We have the XJR pistons and rings in stock. The other kits besides the drop in linked would be Wiseco or Ross depending on cc.

The Wiseco 1219 is the biggest you can go on the 1200 block with out re-sleeving, if I remember correctly. The wall gets too thin on the stock sleeves. I think the 1219 kit is around $700, pistons, rings, gaskets. But you are still gonna pay the labor to bore and hone to there. The 1250 drop in kit is only a bit more after you tally in all the labor. Anddd I think $700 was the old price I think the prices have gone up. I don't have the prices in front of me but I think the piston/rings are $160+ a piece plus the gaskets.


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 15, 2021, 04:54:17 PM
Ok, thanks.


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: Pat Conlon on September 15, 2021, 08:43:15 PM
Another option: if after measuring the bores and they are out of round and taper or have deep scratches is to buy cheap LA sleeves  and install them
your self .Then get them bored to fit your old pistons if they are in in spec.It is not difficult you can read about it in the splitting the cases tread.
I think i payed only 100 dollar for the sleeves and about 600 dollar to get the sleeves bored honed and milled the cylinder top surface.

If a simple hone with new standard rings is not in the cards, then more $$ is needed to get the cylinder wall in spec.
With Robert’s disappointing news, that Yamaha discontinued the + sized pistons, BUT seeing that standard oem sized rings are still available, Rolf’s (Old Rider) option (^^)  pencil’s out to be the most cost effective.

Keep your oem pistons, buy new Yamaha standard size rings, install new sleeves then bore and deck accordingly.

Buying a new (refurbished) sleeved cylinder block along with new aftermarket pistons, pins and rings, when all you need are just new rings and sleeves (reuse your existing pistons, pins, and cylinder block)…it just seems a bit excessive to me.

However, when the time comes that Yamaha stops making the oem standard size rings, then the sleeved block with new aftermarket pistons and rings would be in order.




Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: FJ1200W on September 15, 2021, 11:39:02 PM
The FJ’s oil level sensor in the crankcase can be fussy. We call the red oil light the kookaloo light. It tends to come on under heavy acceleration, hence, the kookaloo zone.

Unless my oil level is at the top line in the window, the oil light will blink. This blinking red light freaked me out at first until I realized what it was….oil level, not oil pressure.
Check it before each ride and you’re golden. You’re down there anyway checking your tire pressures.

Amen, that scared the heck out of me on my 1st long high speed ride. WOT, 5th gear, near redline, and the red oil light pops on, yes, it can be concerning!


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: twangin4u on October 02, 2021, 12:14:31 PM
Hi crank case pressure can also push some oil into your airbox and subsequently get sucked straight into carbs. 


Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: Mike Ramos on October 03, 2021, 12:23:43 AM
Great discussion!

My original engine lost a valve at just over 100,000 miles.  Following Noel's favorite mechanics advice ( :rofl2:), rather than only replace the valves & rings, the engine was rebuilt replacing the main bearings & stronger late model connecting rods.  It was bored one over with Yamaha rings.

This rebuild just turned over 100,000 miles returning from the ECFR.  It now has about 106,000 or so miles.

Oil consumption was zero until about 70,000 miles.  If not on a cross country sojourn, I change oil usually at 3,000 miles and add perhaps a quart in the interim.  The engine still runs strong and very smooth.
MPG is very good as well - jetting to match the exhaust & Uni-pods.

I tip my hat to the RPM crew!

Ride safe,

Midget



Title: Re: Engine has about 43K miles on it and is burning oil. Options?
Post by: ribbert on October 05, 2021, 07:11:18 AM

....Following Noel's favorite mechanics advice....

Midget


I forwarded this to him Mike, he was surprised but none the less delighted, he sends his regards. He was curious however as to why you felt the need for stronger con rods on your build.

The tyre information was excellent, no one here goes through more tyres than you and I know you ride them hard and in all conditions and road surfaces so it was just what I was looking for. I will take all that into account in making my choice.

Thanks

Noel