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Total electrical system failure

Started by Tuned forks, September 20, 2019, 07:50:03 PM

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Tuned forks

I tested the FJ this afternoon.  Revved the engine to 6k rpm and the voltage was 14.2V.  Once again, charging does not begin until 1500 rpm or so.  Maybe it's sporadic which is the kind of malady that I really dislike.  Looks like a voltage gauge is in that bike's future.

Joe
1990 FJ1200-the reacher
1990 FZR 1000-crotch rocket

Pat Conlon

Joe, with the conventional lead acid battery, have you ever had a problem with boiling off electrolyte?
I have.
A volt gauge where you can keep an eye on it is a good idea.
In my experience, the overcharging happened when my engine was heat soaked, usually in the middle of a long ride. The VR just goes crazy. Having my battery boil dry is a good sign things are amiss.
I get the bike home (after refilling the battery) and let it cool down, go out and check the voltage and everything is fine @ ~14.8 volts. So yes, I found the problem to be intermittent.

Could someone check, I seem to recall that the GYSM lists 15.2 volts as the upper range of the charging current for the FJ's system.
1) Free Owners Manual download: https://tinyurl.com/fmsz7hk9
2) Don't store your FJ with E10 fuel https://tinyurl.com/3cjrfct5
3) Replace your old stock rubber brake lines.
4) Important items for the '84-87 FJ's:
Safety wire: https://tinyurl.com/99zp8ufh
Fuel line: https://tinyurl.com/bdff9bf3

ribbert

Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 21, 2019, 09:28:57 PM
Quote from: racerrad8 on September 21, 2019, 07:12:52 PM
.......Li batteries do not excessive voltage for an extended amount of time. They do not have the internal ability to absorb the excess heat/expansion that a normal lead acid/AGM battery do.

From the different AGM specifications I've read, AGM batteries don't like charging @ 15+ volts either.


Neither of them like being overcharged but the AGM (or lead acid) is more forgiving, it's all about duration.

I try and keep up to date with automotive technology and have never been a head in the sand sort of bloke. When something needs replacing I always hunt around to see what's new before buying.

About 6 mths back I needed a new battery. Perchance, the guy I dealt with was the state manager for the battery company. I asked him if it was time to move on to a next gen battery. He rubbed his chin, thought for a moment, asked what sort of riding I do and finally said, "I think go AGM one more time"

What he was referring to was reliability. You can get away with doing things to an acid battery that would fry a Lithium battery. Yes, the odds are long etc but it's not much consolation when a 1000 km's from anywhere you become a statistical outlier when your state of the art, postage stamp weight and size battery shits itself and you ain't goin' nowhere.

Noel
"Tell a wise man something he doesn't know and he'll thank you, tell a fool something he doesn't know and he'll abuse you"

Millietant

Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 22, 2019, 04:45:37 AM
Joe, with the conventional lead acid battery, have you ever had a problem with boiling off electrolyte?
I have.
A volt gauge where you can keep an eye on it is a good idea.
In my experience, the overcharging happened when my engine was heat soaked, usually in the middle of a long ride. The VR just goes crazy. Having my battery boil dry is a good sign things are amiss.
I get the bike home (after refilling the battery) and let it cool down, go out and check the voltage and everything is fine @ ~14.8 volts. So yes, I found the problem to be intermittent.

Could someone check, I seem to recall that the GYSM lists 15.2 volts as the upper range of the charging current for the FJ's system.


I've had my battery boil dry about a half a dozen times in its 30 year life. Every single one of those times was when I was touring either in the south of France, Spain, Italy, or Yugoslavia (just before their war) and every one was after riding repeated long days involving both high miles and extended slow riding in heavy traffic, in extremely hot weather,

I learned to check my battery level daily in those conditions and to have a top-up bottle handy. I've never suffered such an issue at home, or when touring long distances in "normal" weather conditions (i.e., around 30 degrees C max).

The first time was when the bike was quite new and still under warranty and I had it checked out when I returned home and the main dealer could find nothing wrong with the electrical system.

So to summarise, I agree with Pat, it's intermittent, but it's also related to continued extreme heat while riding
Dean

'89 FJ 1200 3CV - owned from new.
'89 FJ 1200 3CV - no engine, tank, seat....parts bike for the future.
'88 FJ 1200 3CV - complete runner 2024 resto project
'88 FJ 1200 3CV - became a race bike, no longer with us.
'86 FJ 1200 1TX - sold to my boss to finance the '89 3CV I still own.

Pat Conlon

We gotta ask ourselves....Why is the red plug melting?
1) Free Owners Manual download: https://tinyurl.com/fmsz7hk9
2) Don't store your FJ with E10 fuel https://tinyurl.com/3cjrfct5
3) Replace your old stock rubber brake lines.
4) Important items for the '84-87 FJ's:
Safety wire: https://tinyurl.com/99zp8ufh
Fuel line: https://tinyurl.com/bdff9bf3

racerrad8

Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 22, 2019, 10:58:54 AM
We gotta ask ourselves....Why is the red plug melting?

That's easy. The "best" poor design of the times.

Randy - RPM
Randy - RPM

Pat Conlon

Quote from: racerrad8 on September 22, 2019, 01:40:45 PM
Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 22, 2019, 10:58:54 AM
We gotta ask ourselves....Why is the red plug melting?
That's easy. The "best" poor design of the times.

The plug or the VR?

I believe the plug problem is just a symptom of what's going on....

You know this idea of reducing the width of the I-4 engine by having the generator mounted behind the cylinders was a new concept developed by Yamaha debuting on the '84 FJ1100.
Yamaha claims to have shaved 4" off the width off the FJ engine by moving the generator from the conventional location off end of the crankshaft, to above the crank and behind the cylinders.
I remember Yamaha sales claim for the new 1984 flagship FJ1100 was that the engine was no wider than a 750cc I-4. Their competition in '84 was the narrow V-4 engine from the Honda VFR's.

My point is.... in an effort to focus on narrowing the engine width, perhaps the engineers at Yamaha forgot to take into account the long term effects of heat and vibration on the solid state components nestled in the generator?

Understandable after all, this location of the FJ generator was a new design.
1) Free Owners Manual download: https://tinyurl.com/fmsz7hk9
2) Don't store your FJ with E10 fuel https://tinyurl.com/3cjrfct5
3) Replace your old stock rubber brake lines.
4) Important items for the '84-87 FJ's:
Safety wire: https://tinyurl.com/99zp8ufh
Fuel line: https://tinyurl.com/bdff9bf3

Tuned forks

Perhaps, Yamaha engineers didn't give a hooey whether the  charging system would last for 30 years.  Although Japanese vehicles have had a reputation for longevity and reliability, the manufacturers still want/need to sell you new vehicles.

BTW, I couldn't find the nefarious red plug.  I did trace the wiring from the alternator to back next to the battery and found a white plug.

Joe
1990 FJ1200-the reacher
1990 FZR 1000-crotch rocket

Pat Conlon

30 year VR Longevity? Yea, safe to say they missed that mark.
My first battery boil off was in 1988 and my bike was only 4 years old....

Ok, enough about the old days and on to Joe's problems...
1) Free Owners Manual download: https://tinyurl.com/fmsz7hk9
2) Don't store your FJ with E10 fuel https://tinyurl.com/3cjrfct5
3) Replace your old stock rubber brake lines.
4) Important items for the '84-87 FJ's:
Safety wire: https://tinyurl.com/99zp8ufh
Fuel line: https://tinyurl.com/bdff9bf3

FJ_Hooligan

Pat,

The "alternator mounted behind the cylinders" design was first introduced on the Yamaha Seca engine as early as 1980.

I believe it also debuted the YICS intake system which was not used on the FJ motor due to the superior flow of the FJ 4-valve head.
DavidR.

Pat Conlon

Thanks David, I did not know that.

Yep, here it is, plain as day


Also I was doubly wrong, ever prior to Yamaha's Seca, I have been informed that Honda did this design on the CBX I-6

I am surprised Noel did not pick this up.....where is he?
1) Free Owners Manual download: https://tinyurl.com/fmsz7hk9
2) Don't store your FJ with E10 fuel https://tinyurl.com/3cjrfct5
3) Replace your old stock rubber brake lines.
4) Important items for the '84-87 FJ's:
Safety wire: https://tinyurl.com/99zp8ufh
Fuel line: https://tinyurl.com/bdff9bf3

Millietant

Its time to give up on the reminiscing Pat....... the first Yamaha with that alternator location was the XJ 650/Seca 650 (not the Seca 750)......as a side bar, an interesting article here on the development of that bike - which possibly links in to why the FJ was such a hit for it's riding position and natural "feel", despite its bulk/size.

https://global.yamaha-motor.com/showroom/yamaha-handling/list/vol04/02.html

..old age plays havoc with the memory you know......... but I reckon you're defo right about the CBX beating Yamaha to it on a street bike. I remember how much better the CBX engine looked compared to the Benelli 750 Sei at the time........or at least, I think I do  :sarcastic:

So.....back to Joe's problem !!!!!!!!!  

While I'm not electrician, it would seem to me Joe, in really simple terms, that if the act of changing the battery meant that everything worked, then the issue most likely is either 1) a dud battery, or 2) a dud connection/earth that was disturbed when changing the battery.

If you're certain that all of the connections are good, then could you find a battery expert who could give you an opinion on its failure?. Also, have you tried charging the Li battery and putting it back on the bike?

Personally, I'd ride around with the lead acid battery on the bike and see what happens (if it drains quickly then you have a charging issue on the bike) and charge the Li battery in the garage, before trying it again to see if it too holds a charge.

What does bug me about the charging issue though is what Randy said a while back - at 7 volts from the Li battery, he said the lights should still come on - my thought would centre on the clock as well. When you had the total failure, was the clock still working ? (Mine always worked even when the battery wouldn't power the lights/starter) - if it was, then you didn't have a "total" electrical failure and I'd focus on understanding why the Li battery lost its charge.

Hope those ramblings make a bit of sense !!

Dean

'89 FJ 1200 3CV - owned from new.
'89 FJ 1200 3CV - no engine, tank, seat....parts bike for the future.
'88 FJ 1200 3CV - complete runner 2024 resto project
'88 FJ 1200 3CV - became a race bike, no longer with us.
'86 FJ 1200 1TX - sold to my boss to finance the '89 3CV I still own.

Pat Conlon

Ok Cool, thanks Dean :flag_of_truce:

I still maintain that the oem FJ voltage regulator sucks. I do remember that most of my little electrical gremlins, blown dash bulbs, burned AGM, etc, went away the day I installed the Transpo VR.
1) Free Owners Manual download: https://tinyurl.com/fmsz7hk9
2) Don't store your FJ with E10 fuel https://tinyurl.com/3cjrfct5
3) Replace your old stock rubber brake lines.
4) Important items for the '84-87 FJ's:
Safety wire: https://tinyurl.com/99zp8ufh
Fuel line: https://tinyurl.com/bdff9bf3

Millietant

Quote from: Pat Conlon on September 24, 2019, 12:24:29 AM
Ok Cool, thanks Dean :flag_of_truce:

I still maintain that the oem FJ voltage regulator sucks. I do remember that.
All my little electrical gremlins, blown dash bulbs, etc, went away the day I installed the Transpo VR.

LOL - I added my extra thoughts on the failure after I hit save on that post initially Pat - I agree on the VR being the issue if Joe's batteries both fail/discharge quickly, but if his failure was "total" and instant, I could also see it being more of a "disturbed" connection issue.

Trial and error testing to understand how the failure is occurring would be my approach - and once the problem is resolved, even it isn't the VR, then I'd change it anyway for the Transpo one, just to "future proof" my electrics a bit  :good:
Dean

'89 FJ 1200 3CV - owned from new.
'89 FJ 1200 3CV - no engine, tank, seat....parts bike for the future.
'88 FJ 1200 3CV - complete runner 2024 resto project
'88 FJ 1200 3CV - became a race bike, no longer with us.
'86 FJ 1200 1TX - sold to my boss to finance the '89 3CV I still own.

Sparky84

Quote from: Millietant on September 23, 2019, 11:56:23 PM

While I'm not electrician, it would seem to me Joe, in really simple terms, that if the act of changing the battery meant that everything worked, then the issue most likely is either 1) a dud battery, or 2) a dud connection/earth that was disturbed when changing the battery.

If you're certain that all of the connections are good, then could you find a battery expert who could give you an opinion on its failure?. Also, have you tried charging the Li battery and putting it back on the bike?

Personally, I'd ride around with the lead acid battery on the bike and see what happens (if it drains quickly then you have a charging issue on the bike) and charge the Li battery in the garage, before trying it again to see if it too holds a charge.

What does bug me about the charging issue though is what Randy said a while back - at 7 volts from the Li battery, he said the lights should still come on - my thought would centre on the clock as well. When you had the total failure, was the clock still working ? (Mine always worked even when the battery wouldn't power the lights/starter) - if it was, then you didn't have a "total" electrical failure and I'd focus on understanding why the Li battery lost its charge.

Hope those ramblings make a bit of sense !!


I hate commenting on things like this (Murphy's Law).

I had a new Li battery that lasted about 4 weeks, (if that) not sure if it completely died. As I tried to start the bike but just had no balls, even after charging. Got a replacement one sent at no charge and is still good, and it's a lot longer than 4 weeks. So maybe battery is a dud.

Cheers
Alan
1984 FJ1100
1979 Kawasaki Z1300
1972 Honda CB750/4 K2