News:

This forum is run by RPM and donations from members.

It is the donations of the members that help offset the operating cost of the forum. The secondary benefit of being a contributing member is the ability to save big during RPM Holiday sales. For more information please check out this link: Membership has its privileges 

Thank you for your support of the all mighty FJ.

Main Menu

Project Motor Swap

Started by FJ1200W, February 07, 2020, 03:13:24 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

FJ1200W

I've been studying the oiling system and wanted to share these lubrication diagrams. If I can make any improvements, let me know, I had trouble tracking some of it, especially in #4.

My focus is on the upper end.

I scheduled a meeting with my machinist this afternoon, weather permitting.
Steve
Columbia, Missouri
USA

FJ1200W

In the past I had smoothed out the sharp edges on the pistons - does anyone think this is worth the effort?
Steve
Columbia, Missouri
USA

CutterBill

Lubrication system: there are a million FJ's all over the world, being soundly thrashed and abused with stock oil systems and they work just fine. Exactly what problem are you trying to solve?

Smoothing off the piston edges: Is it worth it? No.  But is it fun and makes you feel better? Oh absolutely, that's why I do it.  :biggrin:
Bill
Never Slow Down, Never Grow Old.

Current Stable:                                                     
FJ1100                                              
FJ1200 (4)
1999 Yamaha WR400 (street-legal)
2015 Super Tenere
2002 Honda Goldwing

FJ1200W

Quote from: CutterBill on February 12, 2020, 11:51:12 AM
Lubrication system: there are a million FJ's all over the world, being soundly thrashed and abused with stock oil systems and they work just fine. Exactly what problem are you trying to solve?

Smoothing off the piston edges: Is it worth it? No.  But is it fun and makes you feel better? Oh absolutely, that's why I do it.  :biggrin:
Bill

I guess the improvement comment was two fold, mechanically and the the diagrams for future reference.

The #1 intake cam journal(s) looked a little starved. The engine has APE studs, they're fat, and I was concerned they might be restricting the oil flow. I want to dot my I's and cross my T's the best I can. I was considering enlarging those holes one drill size, just enough to maybe increase flow - But, if is is already restricted somewhere else, there is no point.

I dropped the cylinder and pistons off at my machinist just now, hopefully in a couple days I'll know if they're usable.

He has some interesting tools of his trade, one shown.
Steve
Columbia, Missouri
USA

FJ_Hooligan

Replace the "oil supply" studs with stock and use the APE studs on the rest
DavidR.

FJ1200W

Quote from: FJ_Hooligan on February 12, 2020, 02:45:52 PM
Replace the "oil supply" studs with stock and use the APE studs on the rest

It's a tough call. There are enough people running them without any issue to make me think they have to work.

And I've had a few people say they don't like them. One said they were too brittle IHHO, he had seen them snap off at the case, but it was in a higher vibration application, whatever the heck that was. And Randy does not seem to be a fan of them. As this is a budget build for me, I am going to do a close inspection and list the pro's and con's of all options.

Thanks for the feedback
Steve
Columbia, Missouri
USA

fj1289

For me, having gone down a similar path already, it would be a no-brainer: sell the APE studs and get some stock ones (even used).  For the $$ spent figuring out a top end oiler system, you could simply buy new studs.  Really wish I had listened to similar advise in the past!

FJ1200W

Quote from: fj1289 on February 13, 2020, 01:48:55 PM
For me, having gone down a similar path already, it would be a no-brainer: sell the APE studs and get some stock ones (even used).  For the $$ spent figuring out a top end oiler system, you could simply buy new studs.  Really wish I had listened to similar advise in the past!

I may do that, I have that complete other bike just sitting there, it could be a great donor for many parts.

And I do have a title for it..... Maybe that's where the motor will end up.

It would be fun smoking the local V-Twins on a ratty old FJ1100  :good2:

Dyno chart is a local shop and a recent HD Milwaukee 8 mild build, that's some torque and they can pull some pretty impressive times - easily.

What was the maximum RPM you ran with the shim over buckets?
Steve
Columbia, Missouri
USA

ribbert

Quote from: FJ1200W on February 14, 2020, 08:15:08 AM

What was the maximum RPM you ran with the shim over buckets?


I think you'll find piston speed is the limiting revs factor for a road going FJ engine.

Noel
"Tell a wise man something he doesn't know and he'll thank you, tell a fool something he doesn't know and he'll abuse you"

Pat Conlon

Quote from: ribbert on February 14, 2020, 08:35:05 PM
Quote from: FJ1200W on February 14, 2020, 08:15:08 AM

What was the maximum RPM you ran with the shim over buckets?


I think you'll find piston speed is the limiting revs factor for a road going FJ engine.

Noel

Nope, the FJ's limiting rev factor is valve float from oem valve springs.
1) Free Owners Manual download: https://tinyurl.com/fmsz7hk9
2) Don't store your FJ with E10 fuel https://tinyurl.com/3cjrfct5
3) Replace your old stock rubber brake lines.
4) Important items for the '84-87 FJ's:
Safety wire: https://tinyurl.com/99zp8ufh
Fuel line: https://tinyurl.com/bdff9bf3

ribbert

Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 15, 2020, 01:02:25 AM
Quote from: ribbert on February 14, 2020, 08:35:05 PM
Quote from: FJ1200W on February 14, 2020, 08:15:08 AM

What was the maximum RPM you ran with the shim over buckets?


I think you'll find piston speed is the limiting revs factor for a road going FJ engine.

Noel

Nope, the FJ's limiting rev factor is valve float from oem valve springs.

I guess that depends on how you read the question.

There is an absolute mechanical limiting factor (excluding component failure) - valve bounce, and a practical mechanical limiting factor - piston speed.

For a road bike, such as he's building, I took it to be the latter.

Noel

Just out of interest, do you know at what revs valve bounce occurs?
"Tell a wise man something he doesn't know and he'll thank you, tell a fool something he doesn't know and he'll abuse you"

Pat Conlon

I said valve float (from loft) not valve bounce, there is a difference.

At what RPM Valve Float on oem FJ cams with oem springs?

I have been told somewhere in the range of 10k-10.5k RPM, but I'll defer to the experts.

Bob W, Mike, Chris, Randy, David, what say you guys?
1) Free Owners Manual download: https://tinyurl.com/fmsz7hk9
2) Don't store your FJ with E10 fuel https://tinyurl.com/3cjrfct5
3) Replace your old stock rubber brake lines.
4) Important items for the '84-87 FJ's:
Safety wire: https://tinyurl.com/99zp8ufh
Fuel line: https://tinyurl.com/bdff9bf3

racerrad8

Quote from: ribbert on February 14, 2020, 08:35:05 PM
Quote from: FJ1200W on February 14, 2020, 08:15:08 AM

What was the maximum RPM you ran with the shim over buckets?


I think you'll find piston speed is the limiting revs factor for a road going FJ engine.

Noel

I am churning for more specifics on this opinion of Noel's of how the piston speed for the FJ engine is the limiting factor.

This will be interesting to say the least... :bomb:

Randy - RPM
Randy - RPM

Pat Conlon

Yep, I was wondering about that....Questions for Noel:

1) FJ Piston speed: How fast is too fast?
2) If the stroke is 63.8mm at 11k rpm the FJ piston speed is 4605 FPM, is that too fast? Why?

I'm open to learning....
1) Free Owners Manual download: https://tinyurl.com/fmsz7hk9
2) Don't store your FJ with E10 fuel https://tinyurl.com/3cjrfct5
3) Replace your old stock rubber brake lines.
4) Important items for the '84-87 FJ's:
Safety wire: https://tinyurl.com/99zp8ufh
Fuel line: https://tinyurl.com/bdff9bf3

racerrad8

Quote from: Pat Conlon on February 15, 2020, 11:44:45 AM
Yep, I was wondering about that....Questions for Noel:

1) FJ Piston speed: How fast is too fast?
2) If the stroke is 63.8mm at 11k rpm the FJ piston speed is 4605 FPM, is that too fast? Why?

I'm open to learning....

I'll add a couple more questions for Noel:

3) Why is piston speed the limiting factor of a FJ engine?
4) Have you ever observed a FJ engine failure due to excessive piston speed?
   a) If yes, what failed due to the excessive piston speed?
5) Valve "bounce" versus valve "float"; which comes first?
6) Why does one come before the other?

I too am churning for learning...

Randy - RPM
Randy - RPM