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Clutch?

Started by Tapartacus, August 16, 2020, 03:12:17 PM

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T Legg

Quote from: Old Rider on August 19, 2020, 07:32:49 AM
One more tip you MUST try: Tie the lever into handlebar overnight ...  Do the same for brakelever  you will be surpriced..
If it helped then you know it was because of air in the system. If the problem comes back fast you got an airleak in the master cylinder or at the slave cylinder seal or in the bleedscrew

.                 I tried this method a few times without success on a soft front brake then like Bill Rockoff I was tapping the brake lines to get the air bubbles to rise when it occurred to me to start the bike and let it idle for five minutes. That did the trick the brakes were firm again. Now when I'm waiting at lights sometimes  l hold the clutch or brake lever in to clear any air bubbles .
T Legg

ribbert

Quote from: fj-f3a on August 17, 2020, 01:23:25 AM

At our last man shed day, we installed a second diaphragm spring as suggested on this site to prevent the clutch slipping. I started having problems about three months later.

Gavin

That's quite a journey Gavin, I'm surprised you went down that path, (and to be fair, it's only the suggestion of some)...and surprised you fitted a Barnett coil clutch.

Anyway, you now have a clutch that doesn't slip. If you tire of the pull you could try one of these and review it for us, they remove 75% of the pull required, making the clutch truly a one finger operation.



"Clake" clutch m/c

Noel
"Tell a wise man something he doesn't know and he'll thank you, tell a fool something he doesn't know and he'll abuse you"

ribbert

Quote from: Bill_Rockoff on August 19, 2020, 06:51:55 AM

What you probably need is to replace the clutch slave cylinder seal....It's an inexpensive part (twenty bucks US) that is known to have kind of a short service life on these bikes. I was replacing that seal about once a year for a while, I think I've done it seven or eight times

It is SUCH a common FJ issue that I am surprised nobody has already suggested it here already.

.... you will need to do this again in 10,000 miles, so maybe buy two and have one for next time.

Bill, somethings not right there, your experience is not typical. You should only need to do that maybe a couple of times in the life of the bike. I would however recommend only replacing the seal once and then replace the whole slave cylinder the next time, it's only alloy, or get it lined.

Mine still has the original cylinder and I've only replaced one cup, it's done 265,000km. Admittedly, over the last few years it's become weepy a few times but fresh fluid has bought me a couple of years each time. One of our local members found a brake service that will fit them with a SS sleeve for a great price, which I think I'll get done while we're in lock-down (and can't ride).
A new cylinder would see my riding days out but at the moment, the SS liner is actually way cheaper (with the exchange rate and freight) and will last 100 years!

Noel
"Tell a wise man something he doesn't know and he'll thank you, tell a fool something he doesn't know and he'll abuse you"

Bill_Rockoff

Ah yes, post #5, and I missed the entire thing.

Noel, mine has only done about 80% the distance yours has, but 20 years ago it was spending a lot of time idling in traffic, in a relatively hot urban environment. (From what I read, "Cowra" is pretty close to our climate here, but with traffic somewhere between Melbourne and Los Angeles.) There would be not enough movement to provide much cooling, but also too much movement to allow you to just shut the engine down and duck-walk it. I probably should have taken the car, but I was stubborn and I think I needed to ride more than I needed to be free of some easy maintenance activities. I may not have needed to replace that seal two consecutive years more than one pair of consecutive years, I was being a little hyperbolic there, but from 1995 to 2005 I probably replaced that seal five or six times, and the valve cover gasket twice, and the valve cover bolt grommets twice as well. I only recall doing these things once or twice apiece since then. Such is life in a summer full of 36C hour-long commutes where you are within site of the same structure for 10 minutes at a time, a couple of different times during each trip home, with an air-cooled engine. A coworker with a 911 and an air-cooled Ducati had similar challenges for a while.

The hot parts of this motorcycle began to last longer as my commute changed over the years. My carpool obligations stopped coinciding with the worst afternoon traffic, my commute got more flexible, and I got a car with air conditioning that became my first choice for the hottest parts of summer. But those ten years probably explain why it weeps a little from the head gasket and base gasket even today, and why it burns a good bit of oil in the last few years. I have sure spent a lot of time pondering a small cooling fan on an FJ oil cooler.

Reg Pridmore yelled at me once


fj1289

I know it is more money, but I usually order a new slave cylinder now.  I've had two that were pitted bad enough a new seal wasn't going to be a reliable solution.   Then, if I get the slave off and it is rebuildable, it gets a new seal and goes into the spares bin for next time.

Pat Conlon

Chris, I like Simon's solution.....no more soft aluminum bores to pit.
http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=12294.0
1) Free Owners Manual download: https://tinyurl.com/fmsz7hk9
2) Don't store your FJ with E10 fuel https://tinyurl.com/3cjrfct5
3) Replace your old stock rubber brake lines.
4) Important items for the '84-87 FJ's:
Safety wire: https://tinyurl.com/99zp8ufh
Fuel line: https://tinyurl.com/bdff9bf3

Troyskie

Give everything a good clean, flush and thorough bleed before any major expense.
If you've only 'topped up' then the fluid is trash. Especially if you topped up from fluid in a previously opened container.

As the others have said, it is most likely the slave. After all, who wants to be a slave?

You may as well clean, flush and bleed the brakes as well cause the fluid will be trash if you try to keep a 'half full' bottle. Never keep unused brake fluid. It's buggered.
1984 FJ1100 Ms Effie brand new :)
1984 FJ1100 Pearlie, stock as.
1985 FJ1100 Mr Effie 647,000K and still running hard.
1985 FJ1200 'Yummy' takes a licking & keeps on ticking
After all is said and done, more is said than done :)
2013 Trumpy Tiger 800, let's do a lap of Oz

Motofun

I guess I'll be the "science denier" here........I use open bottles of brake fluid!  At $16 a half pint I'm too cheap to just throw it away.  With a dozen bikes and bi-yearly brake fluid flushes it doesn't sit for years on the shelf but it may go for 6 months or so.  You do know the reservoirs are vented, right?  I put the cap back on tight and use it up.  If the bottle is nearly empty then it's a different story.  The race bikes are a bit different and they get flushed mid season and over the winter rebuild.
'69 Honda Trail 90
'75 Honda CB400F
'85 Yamaha RZ350
'85 Yamaha FJ1100
'89 Yamaha FJ1200
'09 Yamaha 125 Zuma
'09 Kawasaki KZ110 (grand kids)
'13 Suzuki GSXR 750 (track)
'14 Yamaha FZ-09
'18 Suzuki GSXR 1000R (track)
'23 Yamaha Tenere 7
SOLD: CBX,RZ500,Ninja 650,CB400F,V45 Sabre,CB700SC,R1

ribbert

Quote from: Motofun on August 20, 2020, 07:36:25 AM
I guess I'll be the "science denier" here........I use open bottles of brake fluid!  At $16 a half pint I'm too cheap to just throw it away.  With a dozen bikes and bi-yearly brake fluid flushes it doesn't sit for years on the shelf but it may go for 6 months or so.  You do know the reservoirs are vented, right?  I put the cap back on tight and use it up.  If the bottle is nearly empty then it's a different story.  The race bikes are a bit different and they get flushed mid season and over the winter rebuild.

I'll back you up on this occasion, as you were writing that, I was writing this to someone else...

".... manufacturers recommend that fluid be used within 12 mths of opening, which is probably conservative (being a manufacturers recommendation)
I wouldn't recommend anyone else follow my example, but it's not something I've ever worried about much. The flushing of fluid routinely as part of a vehicles service schedule is a relatively new thing and I will use anything in the cupboard regardless of age or when it was opened. I guess this habit has developed from decades of never observing any adverse outcomes from doing so.

It is important though to let it stand for 24 hrs if you drop the bottle or if it gets shaken, it will remain aerated for quite a while and takes that long to settle..... "


Noel
"Tell a wise man something he doesn't know and he'll thank you, tell a fool something he doesn't know and he'll abuse you"

red

Quote from: Motofun on August 20, 2020, 07:36:25 AMI guess I'll be the "science denier" here........I use open bottles of brake fluid!  At $16 a half pint I'm too cheap to just throw it away.  With a dozen bikes and bi-yearly brake fluid flushes it doesn't sit for years on the shelf but it may go for 6 months or so.  You do know the reservoirs are vented, right?  I put the cap back on tight and use it up.
Motofun,

Ummm . . . No.  The reservoirs (should) have a diaphragm-folded (bellows) sheet that goes down as brake fluid is used, following the fluid level, without letting outside air touch the brake fluid.  Air is vented into the reservoir above that diaphragm, certainly, but the diaphragm prevents that air from getting to the brake fluid.  Now if the diaphragm is punctured, then it will not do its' job, and outside air would circulate over the brake fluid (BAD NEWS!).  If you open the reservoir, find that the brake fluid is low, and the diaphragm has NOT extended itself down to the fluid level, then the diaphragm has failed (it is cracked or punctured) and the diaphragm should be replaced.  Usually that will mean needing a new (not used) reservoir cap.

Opening a new can of brake fluid briefly to fill a brake reservoir is okay, if you do not set the open can down somewhere while you do other stuff.  Open, pour, cap back on tightly on the can and the brake reservoir, fine.  It is wise (not cheaper) to buy small cans of brake fluid, so there will be less air inside an opened can, and a new container will be opened sooner.  Big bottles of brake fluid that sit half-full for a year can be a false (and dangerous) economy.
.
Cheers,
Red

P.S. Life is too short, and health is too valuable, to ride on cheap parade-duty tires.

Motofun

I'll hazard a guess and say I use my brakes as hard as anyone here.  Slowing down from 170 to 30 for a turn multiple times a lap on my GSXR 1000R does require decent brakes.  I've never had an issue with the fluid, brake fade or other item like boiling.  To each his own.  If you have to think about a potential problem and it causes you to second guess yourself then by all means fix it.  I'll admit that I'm that way about tires.
'69 Honda Trail 90
'75 Honda CB400F
'85 Yamaha RZ350
'85 Yamaha FJ1100
'89 Yamaha FJ1200
'09 Yamaha 125 Zuma
'09 Kawasaki KZ110 (grand kids)
'13 Suzuki GSXR 750 (track)
'14 Yamaha FZ-09
'18 Suzuki GSXR 1000R (track)
'23 Yamaha Tenere 7
SOLD: CBX,RZ500,Ninja 650,CB400F,V45 Sabre,CB700SC,R1

ribbert

Quote from: Motofun on August 21, 2020, 06:50:59 AM
I'll hazard a guess and say I use my brakes as hard as anyone here.  Slowing down from 170 to 30 for a turn multiple times a lap on my GSXR 1000R does require decent brakes.  I've never had an issue with the fluid, brake fade or other item like boiling.  To each his own.  If you have to think about a potential problem and it causes you to second guess yourself then by all means fix it.  I'll admit that I'm that way about tires.

That doesn't surprise me. Bike brakes don't get that hot in normal use (compared to cars). Look at the rotor size and pad area compared to your car, they're much the same size and stopping a fraction of the weight. The short leverage, short travel, unassisted, hand operated brakes can't be applied that hard.



I've had these smelling, creaking, changing colour from max rate full stops from top speed, race track use and descended mountains flat out and never had a hint of fade. The fluid has been in there since mid 2012.
For really hard riding I actually prefer my FJ brakes over the 320mm power assisted Brembos on the other bike, and when those HH pads get really hot, the brakes go up another level.

As I said yesterday, I'm in now way recommending that as a good practice but it was the norm for much of working life and I've never had occasion to change my ways. My point is, terrible things won't happen if you're a bit sloppy with the storage, age and change intervals of brake fluid.

As Motofun said, if it worries you, do it by the book. However, if you bend the rules a bit, your calipers won't turn into pumpkins at midnight.

How many of you routinely change out the fluid on your cars?

Noel
"Tell a wise man something he doesn't know and he'll thank you, tell a fool something he doesn't know and he'll abuse you"

Old Rider

I replace brakefluid every 2 years and the reason is i have lost brakes 2 times once i was driving down from the mountains  steep downhill for a long time i braked with the engine but that was not enough and suddenly i just had about
10 % of breaking power i was lucky as the steep road was flatting out .  That car i had just had a few months and did not know how the condition of the brake fluid
was.
Another time i lost all brakepower coming fast into a intersection the brake pedal slammed to the floor with a bang and i run at red light before even react and  grabbed the handbrake   i almost crashed.When i inspected one of the front brakelines (similar to the ones on a fj ) it had ripped .A car does have 2 separate systems but that time i lost all
brakepower for some reason.
I also lost front brakes on a Honda XL600 i rented on a vacation in spain. about 150 meters from the rentalshop i was accelerating down the road coming into a intersection i wanted to brake but there was no front brake so i drove thru the  intersection with a sliding locked rear tire .

Here in Norway 2 years ago there was a horrific accident killing 5 persons driving a Cadillac Coupe de Ville from 1959.They was driving down a steep curvy downhill
montainroad and then crashed right into a mountain wall in a curve at high speed. The investigation concluded it was brake fading because of bad maintenance.

X-Ray

Following on from what Noel and Pat mentioned earlier, a couple of us in Australia have had our clutch slaves refurbed with a s/s sleeve. This I would think would be a permanent solution to the std alloy bore pitting over time, and would just need seals replacing from time to time from then on. With 3 FJs in the shed now, I will have the other 2 clutch slaves resleeved when leaky time occurs again on those bikes.

I actually bought a new clutch slave from Randy a couple of years back for my '93, and because I don't ride the bikes much, I think just sitting in the shed doing nothing causes the seals to start weeping early, (as happened with the new RPM slave. The '93 was off the road for 8 months during a rebuild)

Anyway, all good now  :good2:
'94 FJ1200 Wet Pale Brown
'93 FJ1200 Dark Violet/Silver
'84 FJ1100 Red/White

'91 FJ1200 Dark Violet/Silver ( Now Sold)
'92 FJ1200 Project/Resto Dark Violet/Silver (Now Sold)






For photos of my rear wheel swap, heres the link  https://www.flickr.com/gp/150032671@N02/62k3KZ

ribbert

Quote from: Old Rider on August 21, 2020, 10:38:46 AM

Here in Norway 2 years ago there was a horrific accident killing 5 persons driving a Cadillac Coupe de Ville from 1959.They was driving down a steep curvy downhill
montainroad and then crashed right into a mountain wall in a curve at high speed. The investigation concluded it was brake fading because of bad maintenance.


A behemoth like a '59 Cadillac with drum brakes on a long continuous, winding descent is a "perfect storm" for brake fade. The hand brake on old cars was commonly called the "emergency brake" for good reason and was usually independent of the main brakes, also for good reason.

Many of the older guys here will remember when learning to drive, being taught the technique for braking down long descents or when towing or from high speed to avoid fade. They probably also remember scaring themselves half to death by ignoring that advice.
This happens with discs but nowhere near to the extent or ease it does with drums. But, as mentioned yesterday, car brakes get much hotter and drum brakes are another whole subject again.


The most common cause of brake fade is a loss of friction between the pad and the rotor, not from overheating the fluid.

Noel
"Tell a wise man something he doesn't know and he'll thank you, tell a fool something he doesn't know and he'll abuse you"