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General Category => Yamaha FJ1100 / FJ1200 Running Problems => Topic started by: 5speed on May 22, 2021, 07:50:48 AM



Title: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 22, 2021, 07:50:48 AM
I repaired the petcock issue and only put a bit of gas in the tank incase it started to leak around the petcock. I moved the bike from the shed to the garage and haven't touched it in a week or so. I went out yesterday to put it back in the shed. It fired right up and idled for a couple of minutes then quit like it ran out of gas.
I filled the tank tried to start it and it kicked a couple of times and wouldn't start.
I thought maybe I flooded it although I couldn't smell gas.

I let it sit over night and just tried to start it and same thing. rolls over just fine but won't even grunt.
Before I siphon all the gas out of the tank, remove it to see if gas is flowing and I have spark..any suggestions on what it might be?
Any fj idiosyncrasies when you run out of gas?


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: fj1289 on May 22, 2021, 08:17:37 AM
Did you turn the petcock to prime to fill the float bowls?


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 22, 2021, 08:45:26 AM
Did you turn the petcock to prime to fill the float bowls?
mine is the on/ reserve type. I've tried it on both with no success.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: red on May 22, 2021, 10:17:34 AM
Did you turn the petcock to prime to fill the float bowls?
mine is the on/ reserve type. I've tried it on both with no success.
5speed,

Shoot a little ether ("starting fluid") into the air cleaner, and try to start hde engine.  If it fires/runs then, you have a gas-flow problem.  If it does not run, then you have an electrical problem.

Do not try to keep the engine running on ether alone; you could damage the engine if you do that.  A brief puff of ether will not hurt anything.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 22, 2021, 10:22:17 AM
Did you turn the petcock to prime to fill the float bowls?
mine is the on/ reserve type. I've tried it on both with no success.
5speed,

Shoot a little ether ("starting fluid") into the air cleaner, and try to start hde engine.  If it fires/runs then, you have a gas-flow problem.  If it does not run, then you have an electrical problem.

Do not try to keep the engine running on ether alone; you could damage the engine if you do that.  A brief puff of ether will not hurt anything.
I'll try that..if I can find my can of starting fluid. lol
It's one of those head scratching things. No indication of any problem, fired right up then quit. Oh well..my new back tire hasn't arrived yet so I can't ride yet anyway.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 22, 2021, 10:37:24 AM
Well..guess what it is. Lol
She fired right up with a shot of either. I hope it isn't a blocked elbow. I didn't use a lot of epoxy for that reason.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 22, 2021, 10:43:06 AM
If you opened up the drain screws on your carb bowls you would find them dry.
  No gas is getting from the tank to the carbs.

2 things come to mind:
1) Your vacuum actuated petcock is not opening or staying open, due to a dodgy vacuum diaphragm or vacuum line connection.
Solution: You can try and fix your existing petcock and hope that it will not leave you stranded...or...Get a new ‘84/85 oem petcock from RPM (plug and play) The 86/87 fuel reserve petcocks are no longer available.
 Between the gas gauge, the odometer and fuel level warning light...the wonky electric fuel reserve cutoff is not needed on the 86/87 petcocks and, IMHO, dangerous. Ever had your bike go on reserve and start studdering in the middle of passing a line of cars? You will then know what I mean.
http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3A36Y-24500-01 (http://rpmracingca.com/proddetail.asp?prod=M%2FC%3A36Y-24500-01)
The ‘84/85 petcocks are superior to the 86/87 due to the fact that they have a prime function which bypasses the vacuum actuation. In the rare event that something happens to the vacuum side of the petcock valve, you can switch the lever on the petcock over to the P (prime) setting and fuel will start flowing....this feature will get you home. You do not have this prime setting feature on your 86/87 petcocks...a stupid move by Yamaha.

2) You have pinched your fuel line by incorrectly routing the line.
Solution: http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18286.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=18286.0)


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 22, 2021, 11:50:55 AM
I pulled the tank and it looked like the vacuum line had come off the petcock. these type of petcocks are new to me and I attempted to blow back thru it and couldn't. I don't know if that is even possible.
I put the tank back on and ensured the vacuum line was hooked up and still nothing. I have the line routed correctly..the PO or someone before him had it routed wrong.
I have the rebuild kit from RPM. Is there any way to bench test it to see if it's functioning correctly?
After I filled the tank the gas gauge didn't move from empty. Would that have any effect on it?


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 22, 2021, 11:59:40 AM
I pulled the tank and it looked like the vacuum line had come off the petcock. these type of petcocks are new to me and I attempted to blow back thru it and couldn't. I don't know if that is even possible.
I put the tank back on and ensured the vacuum line was hooked up and still nothing. I have the line routed correctly..the PO or someone before him had it routed wrong.
I have the rebuild kit from RPM. Is there any way to bench test it to see if it's functioning correctly?
After I filled the tank the gas gauge didn't move from empty. Would that have any effect on it?

Sure, do the suck test.
Run the fuel line from the petcock to a gas can
Connect a temp. Vacuum line to the petcock.
Suck on the vacuum line.....the petcock should open and fuel flow.

That’s the first part...

The second part answers, does your vacuum side on the petcock leak vacuum?
Suck on the vacuum line....can you draw air through it? Even a little? If so, not good, you have a leak.
While sucking on the vacuum line, with the vacuum line in your mouth, put your tongue over the hole on the vacuum line, you should feel the pull of the vacuum on your tongue.



Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 22, 2021, 12:04:34 PM


Sure, do the suck test.
Run the fuel line from the petcock to a gas can
Connect a temp. Vacuum line to the petcock.
Suck on the vacuum line.....the petcock should open and fuel flow.

That’s the first part...

this worries me.  :shok: lol


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 22, 2021, 12:07:54 PM


Sure, do the suck test.
Run the fuel line from the petcock to a gas can
Connect a temp. Vacuum line to the petcock.
Suck on the vacuum line.....the petcock should open and fuel flow.

That’s the first part...

this worries me.  :shok: lol

No need to worry if you use a clean vacuum line....you should not suck any fuel.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 22, 2021, 12:11:38 PM


Sure, do the suck test.
Run the fuel line from the petcock to a gas can
Connect a temp. Vacuum line to the petcock.
Suck on the vacuum line.....the petcock should open and fuel flow.

That’s the first part...

this worries me.  :shok: lol

No need to worry if you use a clean vacuum line....you should not suck any fuel.
lol..oh I've sampled gas before.. not real fond of it.
Is there an electrical bench test too?
I'm on the computer in the house and would rather make 1 trip back out to the garage.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 22, 2021, 12:21:45 PM
lol..oh I've sampled gas before.. not real fond of it.
Is there an electrical bench test too?
I'm on the computer in the house and would rather make 1 trip back out to the garage.


That’s a very good question....something I didn’t consider.
Is it possible that your petcock is on reserve? Perhaps you don’t have enough fuel in your tank? Perhaps the fuel reserve rocker switch is malfunctioning?

As I understand it, when your bike goes on reserve, the electrical circuit going to your petcock energizes the valve in the petcock to interrupt the fuel flow....so...
If you disconnect the wires to your petcock, your petcock *should* remain open (reserve function deactivated)

Hey folks, check me on this ^^ logic....



Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 22, 2021, 12:59:09 PM


That’s a very good question....something I didn’t consider.
Is it possible that your petcock is on reserve? Perhaps you don’t have enough fuel in your tank? Perhaps the fuel reserve rocker switch is malfunctioning?

As I understand it, when your bike goes on reserve, the electrical circuit going to your petcock energizes the valve in the petcock to interrupt the fuel flow....so...
If you disconnect the wires to your petcock, your petcock *should* remain open (reserve function deactivated)

Hey folks, check me on this ^^ logic....


that is something I would like to know in regards to how it functions. Unlike the petcock in my wings..there is only one hole for lack of a better term in the petcock for fuel to enter. I don't understand how the electric reserve functions if it's drawing fuel from the same source as the main or "on" position.
for switching to the 84-85 petcock, are you folks installing it and leaving it on reserve?


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 22, 2021, 01:26:24 PM
That’s the beauty of the 84/85 petcocks...there is no reserve function.
Only 2 settings (on) for normal vacuum actuation and (P) for prime function (on full time bypassing vacuum on/off)

To expand on my understanding of the 86/87 reserve function....there is a fuel level sensor in your fuel tank (part of the float assembly for your fuel gauge) When the fuel level drops below the level of the sensor, it closes a circuit running thru the sensor and thus closed, it energizes or actuates the electrical valve on your petcock interrupting fuel flow to your carbs...thus the engine studder until you switch to reserve on your rocker switch.
Switching to reserve turns off the power to petcock, and thus the petcock opens back up and fuel normally flows.
IOW your reserve petcock is normally open....only upon energizing does it close....

I think.....


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 22, 2021, 01:41:46 PM
well I tested the vacuum on it and fuel flows when I pulled vacuum..
so I put a small funnel in the fuel line and poured a bit of gas directly into the carbs and it started. so before I ran it dry I put the gas tank back on, it started right up and was idling good with the choke on. I let it idle for a few minutes, turned the choke off and it wouldn't take any throttle and quit.
choke back on, start it and it wouldn't take any throttle still. then the low fuel light came on and it quit.
Put more gas in the tank and it's back to starting and quitting immediately.
I double checked to make sure the vacuum line was on correctly and it is.
this makes no sense to me..but neither does how the reserve actually works either. If it's drawing fuel from the same source as the main or "on" position..why is it even there?


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 22, 2021, 01:59:38 PM

this makes no sense to me..but neither does how the reserve actually works either. If it's drawing fuel from the same source as the main or "on" position..why is it even there?

Unlike the old school manual reserve petcocks where you have 2 inlets, one high and one low...the 86/87 petcock only needs one inlet.....it’s the fuel level sensor in your tank that signals the electric valve on the petcock when to close.

Hook up an auxiliary tank to your carbs see if that helps.
I think your vacuum petcock is not staying open....what does your tongue say?

I gotta run....I’ll check back this evening....later gator.  Pat


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 22, 2021, 02:14:12 PM

Unlike the old school manual reserve petcocks where you have 2 inlets, one high and one low...the 86/87 petcock only needs one inlet.....it’s the fuel level sensor in your tank that signals the electric valve on the petcock when to close.

Hook up an auxiliary tank to your carbs see if that helps.
I think your vacuum petcock is not staying open....what does your tongue say?

I gotta run....I’ll check back this evening....later gator.  Pat
LOL..my tongue isn't saying anything. I'll hook up my actual vacuum tester and see if it's holding vacuum.
So if I understand it..the reserve toggle switch just opens the valve when the fuel is low enough to trip the solenoid in the petcock. A sort of heads up warning that you are getting low on fuel. Redundant redundancy.  :good:


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: giantkiller on May 22, 2021, 02:59:58 PM

Unlike the old school manual reserve petcocks where you have 2 inlets, one high and one low...the 86/87 petcock only needs one inlet.....it’s the fuel level sensor in your tank that signals the electric valve on the petcock when to close.

Hook up an auxiliary tank to your carbs see if that helps.
I think your vacuum petcock is not staying open....what does your tongue say?

I gotta run....I’ll check back this evening....later gator.  Pat
LOL..my tongue isn't saying anything. I'll hook up my actual vacuum tester and see if it's holding vacuum.
So if I understand it..the reserve toggle switch just opens the valve when the fuel is low enough to trip the solenoid in the petcock. A sort of heads up warning that you are getting low on fuel. Redundant redundancy.  :good:

I just changed mine to a pingle. Removed the  upper black wire mesh on the side panel. ( if I remember right you have to bend it down. It's been awhile. ) you don't even notice its gone. Then you can reach in and shut off turn on.  Got sick of having my crank case filling with gas.
Randy sells the  pingle. With the correct adapter plate.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: FJmonkey on May 22, 2021, 03:24:26 PM

Hook up an auxiliary tank to your carbs see if that helps.
I think your vacuum petcock is not staying open....what does your tongue say?

I gotta run....I’ll check back this evening....later gator.  Pat
LOL..my tongue isn't saying anything. I'll hook up my actual vacuum tester and see if it's holding vacuum.
So if I understand it..the reserve toggle switch just opens the valve when the fuel is low enough to trip the solenoid in the petcock. A sort of heads up warning that you are getting low on fuel. Redundant redundancy.  :good:
[/quote]

If you have good fuel flow and no vacuum leak then your issue may be trying to idle off the choke. Tis would be an issue with clogged idle jets and is very common with our crappy gas. 


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 22, 2021, 03:39:27 PM


I just changed mine to a pingle. Removed the  upper black wire mesh on the side panel. ( if I remember right you have to bend it down. It's been awhile. ) you don't even notice its gone. Then you can reach in and shut off turn on.  Got sick of having my crank case filling with gas.
Randy sells the  pingle. With the correct adapter plate.
I have the rebuild kit from Randy. I'll attempt that first. I'm one of those "keep it original if at all possible" guys.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 22, 2021, 03:41:29 PM


If you have good fuel flow and no vacuum leak then your issue may be trying to idle off the choke. Tis would be an issue with clogged idle jets and is very common with our crappy gas. 
If it's that..it happened really quickly. the bike started up and idled off the choke great when I moved it to the garage. It sat for about a week then this all started. But that would be my luck. lol


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Old Rider on May 22, 2021, 05:13:02 PM
You might have a fuel starvation if you have the fuel line routed like in the picture you posted in this tread :http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=19883.30 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=19883.30)
The fuel line have to go under the 2 lines that go to carb 1-2 and 3-4


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 22, 2021, 07:02:24 PM
You might have a fuel starvation if you have the fuel line routed like in the picture you posted in this tread :http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=19883.30 ([url]http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=19883.30[/url])
The fuel line have to go under the 2 lines that go to carb 1-2 and 3-4

I'll try that if the petcock passes the vacuum test tomorrow. :)


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 22, 2021, 11:09:16 PM

I'll hook up my actual vacuum tester and see if it's holding vacuum.
So if I understand it..the reserve toggle switch just opens the valve when the fuel is low enough to trip the solenoid in the petcock. A sort of heads up warning that you are getting low on fuel. Redundant redundancy.  :good:

If you have good fuel flow and no vacuum leak then your issue may be trying to idle off the choke. Tis would be an issue with clogged idle jets and is very common with our crappy gas.  

Yes, that’s how I understand the electric reserve functions, good description: redundantly redundant.
If the petcock checks out and holds a vacuum and stays open...and you correctly route your fuel line.....then Mark’s comment about plugged idle circuits may be the next step.
Don’t get discouraged...

Don’t let that big lump of aluminum idle too long without a box fan cooling it down.

Cheers


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Old Rider on May 23, 2021, 03:40:47 AM
 :hi: Don't want to be picky ahole :morning1:  but when i take a look at your picture of how the fuel line looks i can see an obvious and 100% cause of fuel starvation. The line is too long so after routing it under the 2 lines that goes down to the carb 1-2 and 3-4 you should cut it about where the green line is.When you look at the line from above it should reach about to the middle of carburetor 1 vacuum lid where the  red dotted line is.
I also se a problem with the ziptie where the arrow pointing it will  maybe compress the line when fueltank is mounted .
A typical symptom of kinked fuel line is the bike runs for some kilometers / minutes then bogs down when trying to give it trotthe then when waiting some minutes the bike runs for some kilometers and the same happens been there done that  :smile:


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: ribbert on May 23, 2021, 05:00:39 AM

I just changed mine to a pingle. Removed the  upper black wire mesh on the side panel. ( if I remember right you have to bend it down. It's been awhile. ) you don't even notice its gone. Then you can reach in and shut off turn on.  Got sick of having my crank case filling with gas.


Dan, why wouldn't you use a vacuum or electric flow valve, once fitted you never need give it another thought for the life of the bike, no need to turn on/off every time you ride/stop.

Both have been done successfully by members and proven over many years of use and as the default is closed, you never have to worry about a crankcase full of fuel or contaminated oil again, ever, nor will you wake up at 3.00am wondering if you actually did turn the fuel tap off or what ignition sources might lurk in the garage that could ignite 20 litres of gasoline fumes and launch you into the next suburb.

A quality fuel shut-off solenoid can be bought for under $30.

Noel


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 23, 2021, 06:11:04 AM
:hi: Don't want to be picky ahole :morning1:  but when i take a look at your picture of how the fuel line looks i can see an obvious and 100% cause of fuel starvation. The line is too long so after routing it under the 2 lines that goes down to the carb 1-2 and 3-4 you should cut it about where the green line is.When you look at the line from above it should reach about to the middle of carburetor 1 vacuum lid where the  red dotted line is.
I also se a problem with the ziptie where the arrow pointing it will  maybe compress the line when fueltank is mounted .
A typical symptom of kinked fuel line is the bike runs for some kilometers / minutes then bogs down when trying to give it trotthe then when waiting some minutes the bike runs for some kilometers and the same happens been there done that  :smile:
not being picky at all. :)
I did cut the fuel line. I took that picture before I did. I'll check that zip tie but I'm pretty sure it isn't squeezing the fuel line.
I'm at a loss about routing the line under the lines to the carbs..with it being gravity feed I would think having the main line above the t would work better then having it under it.
Heading out after coffee #1 to do the vacuum test.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: giantkiller on May 23, 2021, 06:42:57 AM

I just changed mine to a pingle. Removed the  upper black wire mesh on the side panel. ( if I remember right you have to bend it down. It's been awhile. ) you don't even notice its gone. Then you can reach in and shut off turn on.  Got sick of having my crank case filling with gas.


Dan, why wouldn't you use a vacuum or electric flow valve, once fitted you never need give it another thought for the life of the bike, no need to turn on/off every time you ride/stop.

Both have been done successfully by members and proven over many years of use and as the default is closed, you never have to worry about a crankcase full of fuel or contaminated oil again, ever, nor will you wake up at 3.00am wondering if you actually did turn the fuel tap off or what ignition sources might lurk in the garage that could ignite 20 litres of gasoline fumes and launch you into the next suburb.

A quality fuel shut-off solenoid can be bought for under $30.



Noel

Sounds like a good idea.  I didn't know about them. I have done the go back and check thing. Where does one get a good quality one?  Thanks Noel.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 23, 2021, 07:41:59 AM
okay..it won't hold vacuum.
so I put Randy's kit in and it still won't hold vacuum. tested the vacuum hose..no cracks or leaks.
Now this is where I "think" I may have found the problem.. :crazy:
I took the solenoid out of the petcock, pushed the plunger down with my finger and..it holds vacuum.
At first I thought it may be bad so I tested it with my 2 amp battery charger and it pushed the plunger out (causes it to lose vacuum). tried the wires the other way, it pulled the plunger in (creates vacuum).
So I tried it on the bike..won't hold vacuum with the ignition on and the toggle switch on either "on" or reserve. so I tested to see if there is power at the plug and there is.

So here is where I think "maybe" the issue is. The fuel gauge doesn't seem to be working which makes me think the bike is sending a signal to the solenoid in the petcock to open causing a loss of vacuum. I checked the fuses and all are okay.
Is there a known issue with the fuel gauge on these bikes?
Am I getting close to the problem?
Am I way out in left field?
will the Toronto Maple Leafs win the cup?  :pardon:  <- these emoticons are hilarious.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 23, 2021, 07:49:18 AM

I just changed mine to a pingle. Removed the  upper black wire mesh on the side panel. ( if I remember right you have to bend it down. It's been awhile. ) you don't even notice its gone. Then you can reach in and shut off turn on.  Got sick of having my crank case filling with gas.


Dan, why wouldn't you use a vacuum or electric flow valve, once fitted you never need give it another thought for the life of the bike, no need to turn on/off every time you ride/stop.

Both have been done successfully by members and proven over many years of use and as the default is closed, you never have to worry about a crankcase full of fuel or contaminated oil again, ever, nor will you wake up at 3.00am wondering if you actually did turn the fuel tap off or what ignition sources might lurk in the garage that could ignite 20 litres of gasoline fumes and launch you into the next suburb.

A quality fuel shut-off solenoid can be bought for under $30.

Noel
I'm interested as well. I don't want a petcock that I have to butcher the bike to get at or have to remove the side panel every time I want to ride or get back from a ride.
Those pingle petcocks are stupid expensive..


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: ribbert on May 23, 2021, 08:03:20 AM

I just changed mine to a pingle. Removed the  upper black wire mesh on the side panel. ( if I remember right you have to bend it down. It's been awhile. ) you don't even notice its gone. Then you can reach in and shut off turn on.  Got sick of having my crank case filling with gas.


Dan, why wouldn't you use a vacuum or electric flow valve, once fitted you never need give it another thought for the life of the bike, no need to turn on/off every time you ride/stop.

Both have been done successfully by members and proven over many years of use and as the default is closed, you never have to worry about a crankcase full of fuel or contaminated oil again, ever, nor will you wake up at 3.00am wondering if you actually did turn the fuel tap off or what ignition sources might lurk in the garage that could ignite 20 litres of gasoline fumes and launch you into the next suburb.

A quality fuel shut-off solenoid can be bought for under $30.



Noel

Sounds like a good idea.  I didn't know about them. I have done the go back and check thing. Where does one get a good quality one?  Thanks Noel.

Dan, here's some photos of a typical install. I can't make a recommendation about a specific unit but a solenoid is pretty simple and hard to muck up. I know for a fact the one pictured cost $27, was a random ebay purchase, came from Hungary of all places and has done probably 50k since the installation. The default setting is closed and it has a manual override (the knob with the spanner flats) should it fail, it's win, win and peace of mind to boot.

One of our prolific advisors has previously suggested fitting such a device would restrict fuel flow and starve the engine, this is not the case, the internal diameter is the same as the fuel hose.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/902/27273916918_d3cd4aa6a2_b.jpg)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/974/42266308071_809014dbe5_b.jpg)



Noel


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 23, 2021, 09:19:38 AM
hopefully this will help you guys that actually understand circuit diagrams better then I do. lol
From my limited understanding..the sending unit, fuel gauge, low fuel warning light, petcock are all tied together?

(https://i.imgur.com/jBaxElyl.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/CRUWQm1l.jpg)


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Old Rider on May 23, 2021, 09:45:30 AM
I once replaced the diaphragm in the petcook because it was in bad shape and leaked vacuum.When testing it after it still leaked vacuum i then found a airleak at the backside where the wiring for
the solenoid enter .The old rubber grommet had cracks.Fixed that with heat and fuel resistant flange silicone and now it holds vacuum.
I'm bad at fixing electrical stuff but i know you can test the solenoid by just have the ignition on and the engine stop switch turned on .then toggle the reseve switch if the solenoid makes clicking noise it works.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 23, 2021, 09:51:01 AM
tks. I'll give that a go. I have a feeling it's something simple because the bike worked before I removed the petcock to do the elbow safety wire thing. Maybe that caused a leak.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 23, 2021, 12:43:41 PM
siliconed around the screws and wires for the solenoid..
if that doesn't work this may be my next option. the holes are 44mm center to center and the fj's are 46 so a bit of slotting would have to be done to get it to fasten.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/223642774351 (https://www.ebay.ca/itm/223642774351)


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 23, 2021, 01:11:05 PM
Proper Fuel flow is important on our gravity fed systems, especially with a low fuel level in our tanks (low head pressure) At 7,000+ rpm (aka: kookaloo zone) our 1200cc engines get thirsty.
There is a reason we use a 10mm fuel line and not a 1/4” fuel line.
Look at the outlet on that FleaBay petcock. Look at the outlet on your oem petcock.

Just be aware of the difference, you will probably be ok with the FleaBay petcock...probably.
However, if it stops working....there is no prime function you can use to get you home.

My recommendation for the oem Yamaha 84/85 petcock still stands.
Did I mention that it was plug and play?


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 23, 2021, 04:18:26 PM
Proper Fuel flow is important on our gravity fed systems, especially with a low fuel level in our tanks (low head pressure) At 7,000+ rpm (aka: kookaloo zone) our 1200cc engines get thirsty.
There is a reason we use a 10mm fuel line and not a 1/4” fuel line.
Look at the outlet on that FleaBay petcock. Look at the outlet on your oem petcock.

Just be aware of the difference, you will probably be ok with the FleaBay petcock...probably.
However, if it stops working....there is no prime function you can use to get you home.

My recommendation for the oem Yamaha 84/85 petcock still stands.
Did I mention that it was plug and play?

You did and it's still on the list. I really don't want to be pulling the side panel off twice every time I ride though.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 23, 2021, 04:33:09 PM
Proper Fuel flow is important on our gravity fed systems, especially with a low fuel level in our tanks (low head pressure) At 7,000+ rpm (aka: kookaloo zone) our 1200cc engines get thirsty.
There is a reason we use a 10mm fuel line and not a 1/4” fuel line.
Look at the outlet on that FleaBay petcock. Look at the outlet on your oem petcock.

Just be aware of the difference, you will probably be ok with the FleaBay petcock...probably.
However, if it stops working....there is no prime function you can use to get you home.

My recommendation for the oem Yamaha 84/85 petcock still stands.
Did I mention that it was plug and play?

You did and it's still on the list. I really don't want to be pulling the side panel off twice every time I ride though.

You did not understand what I said.
The Yamaha oem 84/85 petcock is not a manual petcock....it’s vacuum actuated just like your 86/87 petocock.
The only difference is that the 84/85 does not have the electric reserve valve.

I’m done, best wishes.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 23, 2021, 05:01:16 PM

You did not understand what I said.
The Yamaha oem 84/85 petcock is not a manual petcock....it’s vacuum actuated just like your 86/87 petocock.
The only difference is that the 84/85 does not have the electric reserve valve.

I’m done, best wishes.
I must have read the "remove the side panel" in another thread when I searched for previous threads on this issue.
My apologies Pat.
If my silicone repair doesn't work then an 84 one it is.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 23, 2021, 05:07:47 PM
 :good2:


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: giantkiller on May 23, 2021, 05:59:39 PM

I just changed mine to a pingle. Removed the  upper black wire mesh on the side panel. ( if I remember right you have to bend it down. It's been awhile. ) you don't even notice its gone. Then you can reach in and shut off turn on.  Got sick of having my crank case filling with gas.


Dan, why wouldn't you use a vacuum or electric flow valve, once fitted you never need give it another thought for the life of the bike, no need to turn on/off every time you ride/stop.

Both have been done successfully by members and proven over many years of use and as the default is closed, you never have to worry about a crankcase full of fuel or contaminated oil again, ever, nor will you wake up at 3.00am wondering if you actually did turn the fuel tap off or what ignition sources might lurk in the garage that could ignite 20 litres of gasoline fumes and launch you into the next suburb.

A quality fuel shut-off solenoid can be bought for under $30.

Noel
I'm interested as well. I don't want a petcock that I have to butcher the bike to get at or have to remove the side panel every time I want to ride or get back from a ride.
Those pingle petcocks are stupid expensive..
I hardly call what I did butchering the bike.  If I  didn't tell you you would never  noticed. The  bottom  still has the screen.  I had  a  pingle copy off fleaBay. Had to replace it when I was at the rally in California. RPM. Took the leaking fleabay pingle copy off. And installed the real one no charge.  Haven't had a problem many years since.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: giantkiller on May 23, 2021, 06:02:19 PM
Petcock is easily reached right there. With gloves on.
But I do like the extra security of the auto shut off. Thanks
Noel


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 24, 2021, 07:21:34 AM
 :drinks:  success. It holds vacuum and it fires up and idles. However after going thru that song and dance I'm going to order an 84 one from Randy later for my "parts dept".
I want to put a few miles on it and see if there are any issues that need to be addressed.
giantkiller..I looked at that mesh and I just can't do it. I cringe when I watch people cut up muscle cars or any old car that is getting scarce.. :nea:


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: ribbert on May 25, 2021, 08:58:30 AM
Proper Fuel flow is important on our gravity fed systems, especially with a low fuel level in our tanks (low head pressure) At 7,000+ rpm (aka: kookaloo zone) our 1200cc engines get thirsty.
There is a reason we use a 10mm fuel line and not a 1/4” fuel line.
Look at the outlet on that FleaBay petcock. Look at the outlet on your oem petcock.

Just be aware of the difference, you will probably be ok with the FleaBay petcock...probably.
However, if it stops working....there is no prime function you can use to get you home.

My recommendation for the oem Yamaha 84/85 petcock still stands.
Did I mention that it was plug and play?


Proper Fuel flow is important on our gravity fed systems....

Yes it is Pat, that's why the inside diameter of the valve is the same as the fuel line, fuel flows at the same rate as if it was continuous fuel line. Does that make sense?

....you will probably be ok with the FleaBay petcock...probably.

EBay is not a brand. That bike pictured has already travelled more miles since fitting the solenoid valve than the majority of members will do over their entire ownership. There are some things you can afford to buy cheap and the simplicity of solenoid valves, and my experience with them, supports this, and if it fails, so what, they're cheap and it won't leave you stranded (it can be operated manually). The default is the "closed" position, just how you want it. I've been fitting these to gravity fuel systems for decades.


However, if it stops working....there is no prime function you can use to get you home.

Pat, that is simply not true, a "manual override" is as the name suggests, if it fails, the valve can be opened and close manually by turning the manual override knob. This function serves as both a "prime" and an emergency override feature.


So, now we've dealt with your concerns I guess we can expect a hearty endorsement of this mod from you the next time someone raises it.


Pat, you opposed this mod the first/last time it was raised as well, citing the same objections, even taking the extraordinary step of discrediting me as well for good measure and here you are doing it again (minus the personal slight). I don't know why you'd bother, if you don't like it or understand it, just move on. It's a popular mod about which I've never heard a single complaint and one from which many folks could benefit. With plenty of advice posted here that could be legitimately challenged, why pick on something that can't.

The irony of you telling me "...you (being me) don't know what you're talking about...." lives on in your posts. :biggrin:

Noel


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 25, 2021, 09:38:52 AM
Noel, take a chill pill. My post was not directed at you or your solenoid.
I was responding to 5 speed’s post (#35) which immediately preceded my post (#36)
siliconed around the screws and wires for the solenoid..
if that doesn't work this may be my next option. the holes are 44mm center to center and the fj's are 46 so a bit of slotting would have to be done to get it to fasten.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/223642774351 (https://www.ebay.ca/itm/223642774351)

As I’ve said before, I like the idea of the solenoid and your application is fine, for a fuel pump FJ.
My beef was using your 1/4” solenoid on a gravity fed system that uses 10mm fuel line.
After all, those of us who have the gravity fed FJ’s (i.e not you) realize that fuel line obstruction is a concern, the same reason we don’t put fuel filters on our fuel lines and why proper line routing is important.

I see no problem with a properly sized solenoid on a gravity fed fuel system.
(other than the fact that a vacuum petcock is safer....it automatically shuts off fuel flow when the engine stops, whereas your electric solenoid stays open)


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 30, 2021, 11:51:24 AM
Well, new back tire is on, chain adjusted and got an insurance quote. $78 to add her to my policy.
Going to change the oil, plate it this week and take some short rides to get used to it and see if there are anymore gremlins that I need to address.
Thanks for answering all my questions.  :good:


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: fj1289 on May 30, 2021, 12:46:04 PM
Let’er rip!  It’s not an adventure if you are sure of the outcome when you set off!


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 30, 2021, 01:13:20 PM
Let’er rip!  It’s not an adventure if you are sure of the outcome when you set off!
Oh I've been on those adventures..still haven't heard the end of it. lol


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on May 30, 2021, 01:49:28 PM
Every motorcyclist should have a pair of these under their seats.
If you ever have to flatbed your bike, these will save your FJ’s fairing from damage from the big hooks used on the tow truck straps.

(https://lockitt.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/3/soft-tye-150x18.jpg)


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: krusty on May 30, 2021, 03:35:17 PM
Every motorcyclist should have a pair of these under their seats.
If you ever have to flatbed your bike, these will save your FJ’s fairing from damage from the big hooks used on the tow truck straps.

(https://lockitt.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/3/soft-tye-150x18.jpg)

I had several sets of those made up for me by a sail maker. Never thought of carrying a pair on the bike but then, it's not a HD. :shok:


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: FJ1200W on May 30, 2021, 05:53:42 PM


I had several sets of those made up for me by a sail maker. Never thought of carrying a pair on the bike but then, it's not a HD. :shok:

OK that was funny!

I've used "soft ties" for decades.

It was great working for dealerships, as some bikes used then while crated, making them free for the set up staff.

Just a couple weeks ago, I used 4 soft ties to hold a old Kawasaki down for a 10 hour trip.

The straps didn't need any adjustment the entire trip, which amazes me. I credit the soft ties.

They do make life so much easiers.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on May 31, 2021, 06:06:26 AM


I had several sets of those made up for me by a sail maker. Never thought of carrying a pair on the bike but then, it's not a HD. :shok:

OK that was funny!

I've used "soft ties" for decades.

It was great working for dealerships, as some bikes used then while crated, making them free for the set up staff.

Just a couple weeks ago, I used 4 soft ties to hold a old Kawasaki down for a 10 hour trip.

The straps didn't need any adjustment the entire trip, which amazes me. I credit the soft ties.

They do make life so much easiers.

is that a widow maker?  :shok:

I have a set of these. they are the perfect ratchet strap IMHO..they have the spring loaded "latch" on the hooks and come with the straps.
https://www.amazon.ca/RHINO-USA-Ratchet-Down-Straps/dp/B07K3QD3JL (https://www.amazon.ca/RHINO-USA-Ratchet-Down-Straps/dp/B07K3QD3JL)

As for the bike on the flat bed..he is a long time friend and was extra careful tying it down. When ever I call him he answers the phone with "where are you broke down now?" lol
ETA..how are you guys posting pics that aren't "compressed" like mine are?


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Waiex191 on May 31, 2021, 08:57:48 AM
I had several sets of those made up for me by a sail maker.
Hey that's one of my hobbies!  Maybe I should make some.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: ribbert on June 01, 2021, 09:13:30 AM

After all, those of us who have the gravity fed FJ’s (i.e not you) realize that.......   :lol:


I see no problem with a properly sized solenoid on a gravity fed fuel system.




Pat, if someone needs to have it explained that the ID of the solenoid should match the fuel line, perhaps they shouldn't be doing there own work.



Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: ribbert on June 02, 2021, 06:34:57 AM
Every motorcyclist should have a pair of these under their seats.
If you ever have to flatbed your bike, these will save your FJ’s fairing from damage from the big hooks used on the tow truck straps.

(https://lockitt.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/3/soft-tye-150x18.jpg)

I had several sets of those made up for me by a sail maker. Never thought of carrying a pair on the bike but then, it's not a HD. :shok:

For the locals that don't have a personal sail maker, I bought these from Bunnings for about $15 a pair....

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51221041970_a9ab2f3cf0_b.jpg)

....and yes, they are a great idea, even though I'm yet to use mine. I have permanently stowed a pair of these (soft ties as pictured above), $100 in cash and a spare key on each bike. I also carry tools, spares and a compressor (and puncture kit of course) when leaving town.

However, deviating slightly here, the best breakdown tool is top level auto club membership, it covers bikes and bike recovery. If you've shredded a tyre, lost a chain or thrown a rod, they'll not only get your bike back home but they'll throw in a rental car and accommodation to boot.

To deviate even a little further, I also always carry and PLB, these things really bring the cavalry if you're in a spot (as in personal risk).

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49839469033_1c82a30100_c.jpg)

Sorry about the hijack, but any opportunity to get the safety message out there.

Noel



Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: FJ1200W on June 02, 2021, 03:43:09 PM



is that a widow maker?  :shok:




Yes, 1973 Kawasaki 750 H2A


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: giantkiller on June 02, 2021, 04:05:58 PM



is that a widow maker?  :shok:




Yes, 1973 Kawasaki 750 H2A
My brother had one. It was over bored had expansion chambers flat slides with velocity stacks. He would pull out
to pass a car. Crack a wheely at 65mph and ride it away. :wacko1:


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on June 03, 2021, 04:57:55 PM



is that a widow maker?  :shok:




Yes, 1973 Kawasaki 750 H2A
of all the bikes that were ripping around town when I was a teenager..those are the ones I remember the most. A good friend has one unrestored in his garage. No it isn't for sale. I ask him all the time. lol


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: ribbert on June 05, 2021, 06:37:53 AM



is that a widow maker?  :shok:




Yes, 1973 Kawasaki 750 H2A
My brother had one. It was over bored had expansion chambers flat slides with velocity stacks. He would pull out
to pass a car. Crack a wheely at 65mph and ride it away. :wacko1:

Dan, you’re spot on about the wheelies, a hot engine may have made them easier but bog standard was enough.  This was an era when bikes that would easily wheelie in the hands of average riders was rare and it was a party trick the H2 owned, it’s little brother probably being the RD.

Everyone remembers these as motorcycling’s wild child of the 70’s but in reality, they only made 5 or so more HP than the comparatively dull offerings from Honda and Suzuki at the time, the 750/4 and the GT750. But, like everyone else, my memories of them are also of a barely tameable beast, all 75 hp of it. Just surviving the ownership of one came with a certain amount of street cred. These things were so light in the front you could pick up a complete engine off the floor with one hand.

I think the “Widow Maker” moniker and wild reputation was more about the coat hanger wire frame and forks, screen door closer shockers and light front end than it was about brutal power. They were surprisingly torquey for a 2 stroke but still had that wonderful rush of top end power.

In my only ever accident involving a car, I put mine into the back of one at 80 mph. I had just done the very thing H2’s excelled at, a wheelie, in front of the Saturday morning crowd at the biggest bike shop in town. (aaah, the folly of youth!) I think it was about this time I coined the advice, “never ride for the camera or the crowd.”  Advice I still give to this day.

On seeing the car, I instinctively grabbed the front brake, even though the wheel was airborne, and dropped the now locked front wheel onto the road which instantly slammed the bike on it’s side, all in a nano second. The bike went under the car like a giant wedge with the front wheel ending up under the gearbox and both of the car’s back wheels jacked off the ground, still ticking over in reverse. The bike’s entire length was under the car. When the tow truck lifted the car, the bike had to be pried away from it with some difficulty as it had wrapped itself around the underside.
That was an accident that could have and should have killed me, I walked away with no more than a damaged knuckle on one finger and a couple of abrasion burns to the underside of one forearm and the palm of one hand through my leathers from where I first hit the road. I had completely cleared the car except for clipping one hand on the boot (trunk) lid and landed on the road in front, arms first but without breaking a bone.

An irony about that accident was they took the elderly car driver’s licence from him permanently. Also ironic was that this happened within the CBD grid and I was never charged with any traffic offences, such as speeding, even though it progressed to court.

The great thing about being young? I left  the wreck at the bike shop, went home and got another bike and went riding for the rest of the day, before the pain set in. The following day I felt like I’d been hit by a bus.

That was an era when engine development had leap frogged chassis design and many of the big bikes of the day were considered death traps off the showroom floor.

That was almost half a century ago and only a couple of years back I met someone who was there! He still remembered it clearly and said it was spectacular.

I worked on lots of these, they were prone to oil pump failure with many ridden to destruction (or at least considerable damage) before it was picked up. It's how I bought mine cheap, I was running it on pre-mix until such time as I got around to fixing it, which as it turned out, never happened.

The fuel supply was a clever pressurised system similar to that used in the early FJ's.

Noel


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on June 05, 2021, 12:17:13 PM
ribbert..if not for the lack of smart phones you would be youtube famous. :good2:
my first real experience on a motorbike was on the back of a friends 74 RD350. I think we spent as much time on the back wheel as we did on both.  :biggrin:


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: giantkiller on June 05, 2021, 01:52:11 PM
Yeah. His was pretty maxed out. He had drag bars on it. Still came right up.

Like  the dead head sticker on that one.
Perfect.

Hope to get back to the turbo bike. Soon. The paperwork that came with the R&B turbo kit said that the carb jetting and waste gate. Shood put out right at 200hp on pump gas. A fellow that does the  tuning ona turbo sled in town.  Said with today's sensors and controls. Should be able to get it up to around 230ish hp Safely. Can't wait to have the front end get light at150mph. :wacko2:


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on June 05, 2021, 04:24:14 PM
.....The fuel supply was a clever pressurised system similar to that used in the early FJ's.

Tell me more about the early FJ pressurized fuel system.....


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on June 05, 2021, 05:44:07 PM
Yeah. His was pretty maxed out. He had drag bars on it. Still came right up.

Like  the dead head sticker on that one.
Perfect.

Hope to get back to the turbo bike. Soon. The paperwork that came with the R&B turbo kit said that the carb jetting and waste gate. Shood put out right at 200hp on pump gas. A fellow that does the  tuning ona turbo sled in town.  Said with today's sensors and controls. Should be able to get it up to around 230ish hp Safely. Can't wait to have the front end get light at150mph. :wacko2:
(popcorn) is the a thread on the turbo build here?
BTW..love the seat on your bike. Is it factory or after market?


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: giantkiller on June 05, 2021, 09:18:24 PM
It's an old Corbin gunfighter. I had to have recovered.

Like all my other fun stuff. It came to a stop when I started the house...obsession


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: ribbert on June 06, 2021, 04:13:58 AM

Tell me more about the early FJ pressurized fuel system.....

It’s funny Pat, on a number of occasions you’ve sought to publicly ridicule me by saying I don’t understand how gravity works, specifically in the context of fuel flow, even though you know that to be untrue and knowing full well it’s my trade, and yet, here you are asking me to explain it to you.

Weird huh?

Does a delivery pressure of 14.7 psi at the carbies sound familiar?

Noel


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on June 06, 2021, 06:22:10 AM

Tell me more about the early FJ pressurized fuel system.....


Does a delivery pressure of 14.7 psi at the carbies sound familiar?

Noel


I’m familiar with that number as air pressure at sea level, but not for fuel “delivery pressure” in a FJ  gravity flow system......you sure you got that right Noel......or are you are just trolling?

A 33ft column of water is one atm, or 14.7 psi, one foot height of water generates a pressure of 14.7/33, or 0.44 psi pressure. Gasoline @ .75 the density of water, then at a height of 1 foot above the carb (full tank) would genertate a maximum pressure (not accounting for system flow resistance**) of (0.44)(0.75), or 0.33 psi at the carb inlet. If you reduced that distance down to 4” assuming 1/4 tank fuel level, it would then be less pressure (0.44)(0.33)(0.75) or 0.10 psi

Is this the fuel delivery pressure you are referring to?  1/10th of a pound per square inch?

Wow, that’s not very much, huh?

*** Factor in system flow resistance and it wouldn’t take much to impede that flow would it? (Hint)

So, now that we understand about fuel line pressure (at sea level) let’s reduce that pressure to account for elevation....say at 5,000 ft what would be the atmospheric pressure? (12.2 psi) so that means the fuel line pressure would be further reduced by 12%

So now our fuel line pressure with 1/4 tank at 5,000’ is only 0.09 of a pound per sq.inch.

It’s funny Pat, on a number of occasions you’ve sought to publicly ridicule me by saying I don’t understand how gravity works, specifically in the context of fuel flow, even though you know that to be untrue and knowing full well it’s my trade....

Ok, Noel, you’re a smart guy being in the trade and all....please help me with your answers to the following:
Now that the fuel line pressure is understood (correct?) let’s talk about fuel flow...specifically:

Using the above fuel line pressures, (0.09 psi)
1) What’s the fuel flow of a 1/4” ID fuel line 12” long?
2) What’s the fuel flow of a 10mm ID fuel line 12” long?

Now let’s see what the carbs need to feed our FJ engines.
Using a air/fuel ratio of 12 to 1 with a 1200cc FJ air pump spinning at 9,000 rpm with a 120hp power output (WFO) what is the flow needed to each carb, and the total flow needed from the single fuel line leaving the petcock?
At sea level?  At altitude? (5000 MSL)

Don’t help guys....let’s see what Noel comes up with, after all, he opened the door.

....or maybe he was just trolling after all.



Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on June 06, 2021, 06:49:08 AM
It's an old Corbin gunfighter. I had to have recovered.

Like all my other fun stuff. It came to a stop when I started the house...obsession
always liked the gunfighter..now I have another reason to. :)
ETA..is it a factory one for fj's or did you have to modify it?
I was just on the corbin site playing with design's and colours and it doesn't show the gun fighter listed for fj's.
these are the 2 I came up with.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on June 06, 2021, 07:40:06 AM
Not sure if these models will fit an fj but they look sharp imho
First one is the back half of the seat above and is listed as sport touring.
Second one is the gunfight and lady model.
bottom one is the Wall.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on June 06, 2021, 08:07:52 AM
and the gunfighter and lady in 2 difference styles


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: giantkiller on June 06, 2021, 08:33:56 AM
I don't think they make them for the fjs anymore.  But they do show up on fleabay. Quite often. But usually need recovering. I have a lady N gunfighter on my 89. It was leather. But the leather had hardened up so much I had it recovered with regular seat covering.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on June 06, 2021, 08:54:35 AM
I don't think they make them for the fjs anymore.  But they do show up on fleabay. Quite often. But usually need recovering. I have a lady N gunfighter on my 89. It was leather. But the leather had hardened up so much I had it recovered with regular seat covering.
I sent them an e-mail to check and see. They still have the gunfighter and lady model listed..which means they still have seat pans..fingers crossed.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: ribbert on June 07, 2021, 09:45:34 AM

......you sure you got that right Noel......


Yes


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on June 07, 2021, 11:39:00 AM

......you sure you got that right Noel......


Yes

Lazy answer, no cookie for you...


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: ribbert on June 08, 2021, 07:52:34 AM

......you sure you got that right Noel......


Yes

Lazy answer, no cookie for you...

You've just gotta keep niggling haven't you.

Well, you're wrong, I wrote 1000 word response, I just didn't post it.

You should be grateful! This makes twice in two days I've let you off.

Noel


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on June 09, 2021, 05:31:50 AM
well heard back from Corbin. No luv. All they have is the gunfighter and lady..
going to keep the stock one.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: ribbert on June 09, 2021, 09:25:17 AM

......you sure you got that right Noel......


Yes

Lazy answer, no cookie for you...

Pat, you were entirely correct, I was being lazy, having re-read your post it’s obvious you’ve put a lot of time into it and the cocky tone of it demands a response.
As I said, I wrote a reply on the night but thought better of posting it, below is an edited version of that.

You said this….


A 33ft column of water is one atm, or 14.7 psi, one foot height of water generates a pressure of 14.7/33, or 0.44 psi pressure.


….and that's wrong. Not the arithmetic, but how you apply it.

You say that if a 33ft column of water exerts pressure of 14.7 psi, therefore 1/33 of that height will exert 1/33 of the pressure, being 0.44psi. So, by that reasoning, if you removed the last foot of water, atmospheric pressure becomes zero at sea level, where did the 14.7psi disappear to? If this was the case planes couldn't get off the ground and toilets wouldn't flush. You agree that 14.7 psi is atmospheric pressure at sea level on one hand then set about disproving it on the other.

Atmospheric pressure is caused by gravity but doesn't act like it, it’s inescapable, non-selective, multi directional. For the purpose of this discussion, it’s everywhere, from oil tankers to fuel bowls. Perhaps if you visualise it as placing an object underwater it’s easier to understand.

The mistakes you made were not understanding the reference to the column of water, confusing zero with absolute zero (The “zero” used for measuring and to which instruments and gauges are set is actually 14.7 psi), the relationship between gravity and pressure, doubling up on the arithmetic, suggesting that different objects are subject to different amounts of pressure, for example, you say pressure on the outside of the fuel line at 5000ft is 12.2 psi yet the pressure inside the line is 0.09! You don’t seem to grasp that pressure is the same everywhere. Then there’s the weird premise that atmospheric pressure at sea level is actually 33’ above it and the mish mash of calculations that flowed from it, and finally, throwing in a few red herrings, like flow rate, flow resistance and altitude that have nothing to do with anything in the context of this discussion.
Certainly head pressure changes depending how full the tank is but the minimum can't be less than 14.7, that is the starting point with the lowest possible fuel level!

You calculated the fuel line pressure (which is open to the atmosphere and is the same as in the bowl) of a gravity fed FJ fuel system to be somewhere around 0.01psi, if that were so, by what action does fuel get from the carby to the cylinder?

A:  Bernoulli’s principle

B:  Pat’s principle

C:  Atmospheric pressure

D:  The sucking principle

So Pat, just answer me that one question above about how fuel gets to the cylinder. If you can answer that (and understand it), the flaw in your calculations will become glaringly and instantly obvious.




Noel



Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on June 09, 2021, 02:30:34 PM
I always thought the fuel was pulled into and thru the carb during the intake stroke of the engine.  :mail1:


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: woodcreekpete on June 09, 2021, 02:38:09 PM
 I sure hope this is all tongue-in-cheek because, otherwise, it's almost painfully petty.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on June 09, 2021, 03:18:02 PM
Yea, he’s just trolling....
...if he can’t understand the head pressure of a 33’ vertical column of water, he won’t understand the head pressure of 12” of gasoline in a fuel tank....alas, all is lost.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on June 09, 2021, 03:57:05 PM
I always thought the fuel was pulled into and thru the carb during the intake stroke of the engine.  :mail1:

Gravity gets the fuel to the carb bowl...then vacuum pulls the fuel into the engine.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on June 09, 2021, 04:14:59 PM
I always thought the fuel was pulled into and thru the carb during the intake stroke of the engine.  :mail1:

Gravity gets the fuel to the carb bowl...then vacuum pulls the fuel into the engine.
I'm tracking.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: FJ1200W on June 10, 2021, 02:02:47 PM
Noel-it-all strikes again.....

Someone call the Queen!


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: ribbert on June 11, 2021, 08:09:41 AM
Noel-it-all strikes again.....

Someone call the Queen!

Thanks Steve. With all the detractors about it's nice having someone in my corner.

Good choice of adjudicator, the Queen would know the answer for sure, she's a trained mechanic! (Yes, it's true)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51239344137_a082893b65_o.jpg)

"....When she turned 18, at her own insistence, Princess Elizabeth joined the Auxiliary Territorial Service (ATS), where she trained as a truck driver and mechanic...."

It's a qualification she remains proud of to this day.

Good call Steve.

Noel


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Pat Conlon on June 11, 2021, 09:52:50 AM

Good choice of adjudicator, the Queen would know the answer for sure, she's a trained mechanic! (Yes, it's true)


Cool...I didn’t know that....Ask her if she can explain this table to you:

(https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/docs/documents/1354/head-pressure-converter.png)



Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on June 12, 2021, 01:14:12 PM
I was hoping to avoid this but you two leave me no choice.

(https://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/2016/girlfight.gif)

 :biggrin:


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Flynt on June 13, 2021, 08:17:16 PM
I was hoping to avoid this but you two leave me no choice.

(https://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/2016/girlfight.gif)

 :biggrin:

I feel the same...  what was allowed to entertain at Pat's request has become a bitch fest...

Let me ask Noel to please insert the variables in the quoted Bernoulli's equation for fluid flow and prove to everyone that atmospheres pressure (PSIa) doesn't cancel out and leave only differential pressure (head pressure from fluid column in this case) to drive fluid flow...  Pat's right and you're wrong... and I suspect well out of your depth.

Frank


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: giantkiller on June 13, 2021, 10:24:29 PM
Back on topic of your bike. There are 2 Corbin gunfighters on fleabay right now.  One is  way over priced. And one is an auction. With no bids yet. Both need to be recovered.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on June 14, 2021, 05:36:44 AM
Back on topic of your bike. There are 2 Corbin gunfighters on fleabay right now.  One is  way over priced. And one is an auction. With no bids yet. Both need to be recovered.
tks. unfortunately it's not in the budget right now. :(


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Flynt on June 14, 2021, 08:20:52 PM
I was hoping to avoid this but you two leave me no choice.

(https://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/2016/girlfight.gif)

 :biggrin:

I feel the same...  what was allowed to entertain at Pat's request has become a bitch fest...

Let me ask Noel to please insert the variables in the quoted Bernoulli's equation for fluid flow and prove to everyone that atmospheres pressure (PSIa) doesn't cancel out and leave only differential pressure (head pressure from fluid column in this case) to drive fluid flow...  Pat's right and you're wrong... and I suspect well out of your depth.

Frank

I declare this conversation is over...  the math proves clearly that the head driving bowl filling is from 8 to about 4 inches of gasoline, roughly 30% less dense than if you had water in the tank.     This is why no fuel filter was installed until Yanaha added a fuel pump (only putting out 2-3 psig BTW) to make sure the bowls stay full.

Let's move on and discuss the actual bike in question...  A humble gentleman would admit he's wrong and move on...

Frank


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: ribbert on June 16, 2021, 09:52:32 AM
...  Pat's right and you're wrong... and I suspect well out of your depth.

Frank


FFS Frank, I seriously can’t believe I just read that. It's no more complicated than me having a bit of fun with Pat’s post. I was talking atmospheric pressure and Pat replied in head pressure, when I said the fuel was subject to atmospheric pressure (which it is) he assumed I was suggesting it was responsible for flow, which it's not, I merely said it was present.
I extrapolated his errors, the outcome of which I thought would prompt him to review it in a little more detail, it didn’t, so I let it go. Explaining what I’d done would be a bit like having to explain a joke, it doesn’t work so I let it be and have not said a word about it since, or even monitored the thread.

Then tonight I discover half a dozen members have carried on commenting for another 10 posts or so over the last week until you declared it a bitch fest, didn’t any of you realise I was no longer participating??

And now we have Frank, judge, jury and executioner breathing yet more life into it. :dash2:

Frank, how the hell does a bloke with an Engineering degree and a previous life as a submariner look at that gibberish and not say to himself, hang on, someone’s gotta be taking the piss out of someone else here. There is a point where an answer or a statement simply can't be taken seriously.

What we are talking here is high school level science, junior at that. I have tertiary qualifications including physics, not in Frank’s league but certainly more than anyone who didn’t take science-based career path and Frank knows that. So, what am I to make of his remark about being out of my depth or the offensively simple question he posed? I can't come up with any reason other than a gratuitous put down.

Don’t forget, I never wanted to be a part of this in the first place.

OK, you’ve talked the talk……

...  A humble gentleman would admit he's wrong and move on...

Frank

.....can you ‘walk the walk’

Noel

 





Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on June 16, 2021, 06:15:57 PM
Back on topic of your bike. There are 2 Corbin gunfighters on fleabay right now.  One is  way over priced. And one is an auction. With no bids yet. Both need to be recovered.
well..I adopted the one at auction... the exchange rate and shipping hurt but I think it really compliments the bike and the chances of another one coming along is probably pretty thin..
there..lets see if this will get my thread back on track and the science geeks can start their own purse swinging thread.  :drinks:


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Flynt on June 16, 2021, 06:50:53 PM
Sure can Noel...  my mistake for not recognizing the genius of you idiocy.  Now can we move on?

Frank


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: giantkiller on June 17, 2021, 12:16:08 AM
Back on topic of your bike. There are 2 Corbin gunfighters on fleabay right now.  One is  way over priced. And one is an auction. With no bids yet. Both need to be recovered.
well..I adopted the one at auction... the exchange rate and shipping hurt but I think it really compliments the bike and the chances of another one coming along is probably pretty thin..
there..lets see if this will get my thread back on track and the science geeks can start their own purse swinging thread.  :drinks:
Thats kool. The one that was up for auction looked in better shape. Still. Will need recovering someday.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: 5speed on June 17, 2021, 06:36:17 AM
well..I adopted the one at auction... the exchange rate and shipping hurt but I think it really compliments the bike and the chances of another one coming along is probably pretty thin..
there..lets see if this will get my thread back on track and the science geeks can start their own purse swinging thread.  :drinks:
Reply with Quote
Thats kool. The one that was up for auction looked in better shape. Still. Will need recovering someday.
that will be a winter project. going to change it to some variation of red and white with black accents.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: wco56 on September 28, 2021, 06:01:59 AM
I once replaced the diaphragm in the petcook because it was in bad shape and leaked vacuum.When testing it after it still leaked vacuum i then found a airleak at the backside where the wiring for
the solenoid enter .The old rubber grommet had cracks.Fixed that with heat and fuel resistant flange silicone and now it holds vacuum.
I'm bad at fixing electrical stuff but i know you can test the solenoid by just have the ignition on and the engine stop switch turned on .then toggle the reseve switch if the solenoid makes clicking noise it works.

Old Rider, I have a question about the product you used and how you used it. My petcock does not hold vacuum but the bike runs fine. I think this must be because the vacuum from the motor is relatively constant when it is running. I don’t know for sure but I suspect I have the same issue you had. I have never heard of fuel resistant flange silicone but I have a variety of sealants to choose from. If you could elaborate on exactly which product you used I would appreciate it. Also, did you seal under the metal plate as well as around of wire entry point? That is how it looks from the photo. Thanks for the info.


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: Old Rider on September 28, 2021, 08:42:57 AM


Old Rider, I have a question about the product you used and how you used it. My petcock does not hold vacuum but the bike runs fine. I think this must be because the vacuum from the motor is relatively constant when it is running. I don’t know for sure but I suspect I have the same issue you had. I have never heard of fuel resistant flange silicone but I have a variety of sealants to choose from. If you could elaborate on exactly which product you used I would appreciate it. Also, did you seal under the metal plate as well as around of wire entry point? That is how it looks from the photo. Thanks for the info.
[/quote]

Hi wco56  I used this product www.biltema.no/bilpleie/bilvedlikehold/beskyttende-tetningsmidler/flenstetting-2000040362 (http://www.biltema.no/bilpleie/bilvedlikehold/beskyttende-tetningsmidler/flenstetting-2000040362)
i live in Norway don't know what it is called in USA .I think it is used most on boats between metal surfaces pipes ets
when cured after 24 hours It is resistant to gasoline diesel glycol brakefluid mineral and synthetic oils and other chemicals and has temp range from -67 to +330 Celsius.
Yes i used a thin layer inside under the metalplate also

There is more info in this tread : http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=19388.0 (http://www.fjowners.com/index.php?topic=19388.0)


Title: Re: she won't start now
Post by: wco56 on October 01, 2021, 07:16:45 AM
Thank you for the info.